Alright, That’s Enough On Graeme Frost

By
October 9, 2007

I did some research into the Frost family last night but was just going to let it go, no need to pile on, etc. But Think Progress doesn’t seem to want to let it go. So, I’m posting what I turned up after I say my piece.

See those faces at Right? No, not the kids. This was never about the kids, Graeme, or otherwise. It’s tragic that they were injured so severely. But it’s also tragic that apparently F Halsey Frost, otherwise known as Daddy here, never learned to take responsibility for himself, or give up options he wasn’t prepared to support. Why bother, one can always call on the American taxpayer for that?

This story is about the parents, Bonnie and F. Halsey Frost who grew up with all the advantages and, despite what I might assume is a liberal view on abortion, not only most likely support that free choice; if someone wants to have kids, they apparently believe it’s cool to play with wood, or hold low-paying, fun, or perhaps lower stress jobs without having to worry about providing for whatever number of moppets one might feel like dropping into the world. I guess it’s, let someone else pay for it, in their world view. I’m thinking F H learned that and little else from his Daddy.

Do they have any idea of the number of people who stay in less than great jobs precisely so their kids can have excellent benefits? It’s called sacrifice, something Bonnie and F don’t seem to think is their job. Nah, let’s leave that to American taxpayers, many of whom don’t even make as much as they do and certainly don’t have the long line of private schools in their past.

How about getting Dad to cash in on the vintage 1956 T-Bird, 56 being the year he graduated from Princeton, F H? Doesn’t he care enough about his Grand kids? I mean, that question’s fair game, right? After all, you weren’t too ashamed to put it to us by allowing your child to be used by a liberal political machine, right?

That’s the car that recently won him third place in an antique car show. He has money to help send the Princeton Band on the road – how about calling Dad next time you need some help instead of trying to reach into the collective pocket of the American taxpayers, you irresponsible, simpering wimp.

I hate to pile on here, but some of what I’ve been reading given a deeper search kind of steams me. Following up on Michelle’s post on Graeme Frost, meet Mr. and Mrs. A. Corwin Frost of Bronxville, N.Y.

That would be Princeton ’56, as in they were able to cough up some dough to help send the Princeton Band to San Diego. Take third place in the Manchester Antique and Classic Car Show with their ’56 T-bird. Must have been fun tooling around Princeton in that, I’d bet. Of course now, they’re reduced to tooling around in "affluent" Bronxville – Corwin is Chairman of the Planning Board – keen to keep the riff-raff out of the hood, or so it seems.

"The more we hear, the more we think he may be an undesirable guy," said Frost. "We don’t know his real motivation."

Bronxville is an affluent bedroom community of 6,200 people in southern Westchester County, about 15 miles from mid-town Manhattan. In a one-square-mile village dominated by Tudor, Victorian and colonial homes, Green’s warehouse home would be by far the largest and most peculiar.

There was money for the Alumni Walkway at a Private School in Bronxville, looks like Corwin went from there straight to Princeton. I assume he does alright given this billion dollar NJ project he ran. There are three generations of Frost architecture in the archives of American Art.

Yes, the Frost children are victims, but not of conservatives. They look more like victims of a couple of mostly spoiled brats who became parents and never felt compelled to take responsibility for themselves when it came to the bottom line on that. There are poor people in America who need help, particularly as regards Health care. The point is, the family above shouldn’t be and simply aren’t among them. Call Dad next time you want some bucks FH. And kindly leave the rest of America’s collective wallet the hell alone.

Or, hey, get a second job with benefits. I’ve done that more than once in my life when I needed the cash. And do it before you let Graeme tell the media how much you struggle to take care of him, because there are enough people in America who really do struggle with these issues. And when they take a look at your lot in life they are left far from impressed and unmoved to cough up one thin dime so you can enjoy afternoons playing with your lathe, or whatever the hell else it is you do in your factory.

I don’t see someone who needs my help in F Halsey Frost. I see a simpleton and a loser who had more kids than he could afford and doesn’t appear to have given up very much in life to deal with that situation. Who knows, maybe Dad figured it out, too and cut him off. What the hell, there’s always welfare, right?



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Comments:
  1. http://instapundit.com/archives2/010349.php

    CROSSING THE LINE. And inspiring this response from Dan Riehl….

  2. brainy435 says:

    “Or, hey, get a second job with benefits.”
    Isn’t he self-employed? Maybe the dems should get on this deadbeat employer to offer health care the way they get on Wal-Mart.
    Just sayin’…

  3. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    They both look healthy enough to work to me. Strange how single moms without child support can find thier way to health care, but these two able bodied people can’t. The kids go to private school which costs 20k a year.

  4. seekeronos says:

    “— …The kids go to private school which costs 20k a year. —”
    Yikes. Is that $20k per kid, or $20k for the both of them together? (Y’know, the bulk rate?)
    Maybe Mr. F.H. Frost should re-evaluate his business model, or pack it in and sell the woodshop and ask Daddy for a real job.

  5. I’m self employed and my insurance costs $265 a month. There are plans as low as $70 a month. If he just chose the cheapest family plan almost all the expenses would have been paid. It seems bizarre to me that people will not accept any personal responsibility.

  6. Lala says:

    I’m paying $449.50 per month for my 23 year old for insurance under COBRA in New York State. When the 18 months are up I can keep the insurance by paying $1000.00 per month.
    New York State probably has the highest health insurance premiums in the country due to their various mandates.
    I would prefer just to have major-medical insurance for her and pay the doctor bills out of pocket, it would be cheaper, but I am stuck as New York State doesn’t allow it.

  7. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    Lala: Don’t feel too bad we will all likely be in similar circumstances in two years.

  8. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “Yikes. Is that $20k per kid, or $20k for the both of them together? (Y’know, the bulk rate?)”
    They have four kids but apparently only two go to private school and it’s 20K each. Yet they “claim” a combined income of 45k. Very interesting, these people. I googled the name.

  9. Public Healthcare? Yes; Public School? No Thanks!

    My only question is this: If Graeme Frost’s parents are such big fans of a publicly-funded healthcare system, why in the heck aren’t they sending him to a publicly funded education system? I mean, if they were principled in their belief on governmen…

  10. djm1992 says:

    “Yikes. Is that $20k per kid, or $20k for the both of them together? (Y’know, the bulk rate?)”
    I’ve seen on various blogs that it’s 2 kids @ 20K/kid, but I’ve also read that they are also getting some sort of subsidy, so it’s in the neighborhood of 11-12K/kid.
    There are lots of aspects to this story that frost me (pun fully intended), but one that really stands out for me is the educational expenses. I know everybody wants the best educational opportunities for their kid, but good lord, 12K per kid for education when they don’t have health coverage? Send them to public school, and there’s your cash for health insurance -plus some extra to spare.

  11. The Frost Contertemps

    I am really enjoying this story. It’s not quite as good as Dan Rather’s forged documents, but it s at least as good a blog story as Beauchamp’s Bogus TNR pieces. The Frosts are the folks who put their 12-year…

  12. Ken says:

    “I know everybody wants the best educational opportunities for their kid, but good lord, 12K per kid for education when they don’t have health coverage?”
    The amount of ignorance on this subject is astounding. Perhaps you need to research more to found out what the Frosts are paying.
    (Hint — the password is “scholarship”)

  13. WHS says:

    You get ‘em, Dan. It’s so nice to see you chickenhawks find an enemy you’re all willing to stand up to. Iraqis? Hell no, those dudes have guns and stuff. But 12 year old kids? Yeah, that’s right up your alley, especially if they’ve already been a major car accident.
    I think it may be a tough fight, Dan, but if you fight dirty, I think you can take him.

  14. pinson says:

    You’re all class, Dan. If you’re going hang with the first-rate wingnuts, though, you really need to ratchet up the hate and ridicule a bit more. Maybe make fun of Graeme’s brain-damaged sister or something, like when Rush jiggled around to make fun of Michael J. Fox’s Parkinson’s disease. Or do like Malkin and start stalking the family.

  15. Korla Pundit says:

    Hey, WHS, you said it wrong. Get it right. Here’s how to say it:
    “Won’t somebody think about the CHILDREN?!”
    Using kids as human shields: it’s what Lefties consider the first resort.

  16. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    Well Ken, let us assume these kids are recieving 100% scholarships (they aren’t but lets play). I raised three kids, sent them to private school AND wifey to college. I worked 2, sometimes three jobs to do it. I’ve always had health insurance because I chose jobs that paid half. If this guys owns a 160,000 dollar building and has a wood working company in business since the early nineties, in Baltimore of all places. The biz is making in the millions yearly….he can afford insurance and should have it for employees. If he isn’t doing any better than he claims he isn’t worth crap at his craft and needs to go work a real job.

  17. Krista says:

    Looks like everybody loves the entrepreneurial spirit — unless that entrepreneur’s kids need governent-funded healthcare, in which case the cries of “get a real job, you bum” become rather overwhelming, don’t they?
    Besides, even if the father HAD switched jobs after his kids were injured, in order to obtain med coverage, the kids would likely not have been covered, due to pre-existing conditions, or he would have been covered, but with a max. benefit cap, which would have very rapidly been reached.
    Wake up. There are middle-class, hardworking, God-fearing, NORMAL families who are only one accident or illness away from six-figure medical bills. What the hell is wrong with your country that billions of dollars are spent in Iraq, but you people are shrieking about having to pay a fraction of that for medical care for kids?

  18. Davebo says:

    Wow, just wow.
    If ignorance is indeed bliss Dan is changing his underwear.
    Tell me Dan, if the parents earned 75k per year, would they be able to get coverage for two kids with extreme existing conditions?
    Of course not.
    Perhaps you aren’t aware of this fact. I don’t know, maybe your dad is a Exec. VP at Raytheon and let’s you use his basement.
    Regardless, you haven’t a fucking clue what you’re talking about, as usual. So I’d like to come discuss it with you in person.
    I’ll email you now for address details and we can try, as Forest Gump’s Mom tried, to get you straightened out.
    Have Dad get the check ready ok?

  19. doug says:

    I know that it’s a lot to ask, but ever consider that the grandparents are picking up the tab for the kids private school? Most of the idiots who read this blog live in shacks on wheels, so I wouldnt expect you to know this, but paying for your grandkids education is a common move to reduce estate taxes.

  20. WHS says:

    **If this guys owns a 160,000 dollar building**
    Apparently Wahoo doesn’t understand the concept of a mortgage. Sad, really.
    **Using kids as human shields: it’s what Lefties consider the first resort.**
    You mean like using a nine year old to sell Social Security reform? Or using a little girl who’s mom died on 9/11 to help get Bush re-elected? Or using “snowflake babies” in the stem cell research debate? Yeah, the lefties have a real monopoly on using children for political gain.
    Are all of the people who regularly comment here as stupid as Dan, or just Wahoo and Korla?

  21. Korla Pundit says:

    If the Dems have a valid argument for socialized medicine, they would have an adult get up to debate it, instead of hiding behind a child reading their script, and then pouncing on any rebuttal as “attacking childen.”
    But we all know from what’s happening in Canada and the UK, and even from right here at home with Social Security, the VA, Medicare, etc, government interference in healthcare is always disastrous for everybody except the bureaucrats and the politicians. Doctors and patients alike are screwed. And worse with HillaryCare: people would lose incentive to ever become a doctor. Or to do research.
    But don’t attack a child! No!

  22. Tax Analyst says:

    Sir, you are a Riehl dip-wad. The Milk of Human Kindness would likely turn into rancid pus if it so much as touched your veins.

  23. Xanthippas says:

    What the hell is wrong with your country that billions of dollars are spent in Iraq, but you people are shrieking about having to pay a fraction of that for medical care for kids?
    ==============================
    See: Riehl World View.

  24. Peach says:

    Riddle me this DJM. They are sending their children to, in my opinion, a pretty exclusive private school (42 sf art center, 43 sf fitness center? That’s better than some college campuses I’ve seen).
    Both parents come from pretty nice upbringings, both college educated at highly reputable colleges.
    I’m a little perplexed at the education priority. For what? As examples the parents haven’t put their education to use to benefit their family The father chooses to be a moderately successful at best, self-employed man. I really don’t care what people do or how they chose to live their lives, but it “frosts” me when people take for granted their education good fortune and expect others to pick up the tab that education college education was meant for so they can dabble in fine learning and woodwork. Woodworking is great, but if you can’t make a living that supports the 4 children you have, time to put that college education to work and get a job that does.

  25. SCHIP Poster Family Not So Needy After All

    It appears that the advocates of SCHIP expansion did a poor job of choosing their poster family. The Frosts got a profile in the Baltimore Sun and one of their children, Graeme, was trundled up to Congress to pull on America’s heart strings. But …

  26. Tax Analyst says:

    “But we all know from what’s happening in Canada and the UK, and even from right here at home with Social Security, the VA, Medicare, etc, government interference in healthcare is always disastrous for everybody except the bureaucrats and the politicians. Doctors and patients alike are screwed. And worse with HillaryCare: people would lose incentive to ever become a doctor. Or to do research.”
    Posted by: Korla Pundit | Tuesday, October 09, 2007 at 04:32 PM
    Yeah, you’re right, Korla Pundit…Social Security, Medicare, the GI Bill, the WPA – TVA, and many more, all total disasters for the American people. Do you KNOW what happened to non-wealthy, elderly people prior to Medicare? Why don’t you do a little research and check it out?

  27. Korla Pundit says:

    Moonbats reallly do fly apart at the seams when their poster children, both literally and figuratively, are exposed as frauds, whether it’s a child reading a script that a dem operative wrote for her, or a military liar like Beauchamp. Their flailing and grasping at straw men and ad hominem attacks become what is known as “comedy gold.”

  28. joeadams says:

    I used to wonder how the fascists could have possibly come to power in germany and italy. After all, in a society with so many level-headed people, how could it have possibly come to pass that citizens would start to attack innocent members of a community for “ruining the country”. And then you and michelle malkin come along and now it all makes sense. Really, you would think you would attack the program on the grounds that you disagree with it, but no, better to attack a family in which the kids have suffered in a car accident. Better to argue about what “struggling” really means. Better to investigate just why those blasted kids can get such a good education if they can’t afford healthcare. As a fiscally conservative libertarian, I’m now reflexively for anything you’re against, which is funny, because prior to your article and malkin’s today, I was very against this healthcare program because it would undoubtedly lead to cost abuses….i’m willing to take a hit on that point and others to come, however, in order to campaign against you and your pathetic compatriots. Make sure you pick through their garbage tonight, because you know, they might have had Steak! And then you’ll REALLY have a scoop!

  29. doug says:

    “That’s the car that recently won him third place in an antique car show. He has money to help send the Princeton Band on the road – how about calling Dad next time you need some help instead of trying to reach into the collective pocket of the American taxpayers, you irresponsible, simpering wimp.”
    What else can you expect from a guy who let his brother die alone in a flophouse.

  30. Xanthippas says:

    As examples the parents haven’t put their education to use to benefit their family The father chooses to be a moderately successful at best, self-employed man. I really don’t care what people do or how they chose to live their lives, but it “frosts” me when people take for granted their education good fortune and expect others to pick up the tab that education college education was meant for so they can dabble in fine learning and woodwork. Woodworking is great, but if you can’t make a living that supports the 4 children you have, time to put that college education to work and get a job that does.
    =========
    In other words, ignore what we Republicans have told you for decades about the values of hard work, the merits of being a small-business owner and living in an “ownership” society, and be a wage slave for one of the few corporations these days that will provide decent health insurance so we can avoid being taxed to pay for your sick kids. Unless of course that doesn’t apply to the argument I’m trying to make, in which case forget I said all that.
    Any principles left over there on the right? Let me get out my microscope. Umm…hmmm…no, not that I can see.
    But at least you’ve got bloggers like Dan Riehl!

  31. Korla Pundit says:

    >Do you KNOW what happened to non-wealthy, elderly people prior to Medicare?
    I “KNOW” people who are allegedly being “helped” by Medicare and Medicaid. It’s crap. They are treated like dirt and their illnesses are allowed to progress and go untreated or treated inadequately.
    If you want to continue these programs as-is, that shows a real degree of compassion, I’m sure.
    But when you want to force every American onto such government “assistance,” then you are trying to condemn us to a Soviet style of hell. The private health system we have isn’t great by a long shot. But it’s the best of a long list of crappy systems.
    HillaryCare is the cure that’s worse than the disease.

  32. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “**If this guys owns a 160,000 dollar building**
    Apparently Wahoo doesn’t understand the concept of a mortgage. Sad, really.”
    Yeah, it is sad. SAD that a genius like yourself doesn’t know enough about a mortgage/real estate prices to have a concept of the value of real estate bought in 1992 compared to it’s value today. Now your real argument would have been to pose the possiblity that he has refinanced at least once during the period either to reduce the amount of interest paid and/or to expand the business.

  33. Xanthippas says:

    Moonbats reallly do fly apart at the seams when their poster children, both literally and figuratively, are exposed as frauds, whether it’s a child reading a script that a dem operative wrote for her, or a military liar like Beauchamp. Their flailing and grasping at straw men and ad hominem attacks become what is known as “comedy gold.”
    ========================================
    What you just wrote is actually all the opposite of truth, and referring to it as “comedy gold” actually makes what you wrote sort of the opposite of comedy gold. Say, “sadness gold” or perhaps “stupidity gold.”

  34. WHS says:

    **If the Dems have a valid argument for socialized medicine, they would have an adult get up to debate it**
    Nice strawman. SCHIP isn’t socialized medicine. It consists of grants to states who use it to buy private insurance, thereby pooling the risk. You really are dumb, aren’t you?
    **I’m a little perplexed at the education priority.**
    You’re also uninformed about their education. The boy goes to a school that offers financial assistance to families making up to $160,000 per year. The Frosts pay $500 per year for his tuition under the financial assistance program administered by the school. The girl goes to a special needs school tuition free (you may or may not have heard, but she was in kind of a big car accident).
    Really, the amount of stupid that infects this place is off the charts.

  35. Korla Pundit says:

    So are Democrats now insisting that public school is not good enough?
    That $40,000 a year MIGHT be enough to buy insurance for those kids….

  36. IslamoLlama says:

    The kids are going to a private school because the Baltimore public school system sucks and they’ve got a sweet needs-based scholarship where tuition only runs them $500 / year. You see, much like such academic institutions as Yale, if you are smart but needy you can come in on a scholarship and get what basically amounts to a free ride. Meanwhile, the dumb but rich subsidize your education through exorbitant enrollment fees.
    What’s more, since when does a man who marries, starts a family, starts his own business, and works a hands-on job at woodworking (as opposed to a mindless store clerk job at Walmart or an evil John Edwards lawyer job) suddenly become some sort of evil parasite? It’s not even like he’s failed to provide his kids with insurance. His kids have insurance. He’s just chosen to use an existing federal program to help pay for it.
    What’s next? Are you going to bust his balls when he and his wife retire and start drawing on Social Security? “Oh! What a leech! What a parasite!” You going to chase after him for driving on public highways? “Waste of tax dollars!” How about calling the fire department if his house catches fire? “Too good for asbestos and home insurance!” Oh no, he’s writing his Congressman, and he’s using the Federal Post System! I think I just saw my taxes go up before my eyes!
    The biggest joke of all is the Presidential proposed “tax cut for health insurance”. The tax cut that’s supposed to solve this guy’s problems in lu of SCHIP. You think this guy is even paying taxes? 4 kids at $45k a year and you’re practically eligible for EITC. That’s a refundable credit, the sort you get when you are so poor the government needs to pay you to work just to help you make ends meet. And you’re complaining that he’s drawing on subsidized insurance? What a laugh. I pray none of you guys are accountants or economists.

  37. Korla Pundit says:

    Gee, maybe we can morph this into a thread of how Democrats now are in favor of SCHOOL VOUCHERS!

  38. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “I know that it’s a lot to ask, but ever consider that the grandparents are picking up the tab for the kids private school? Could be, too bad it is impossible to switch to a cheaper private school and help with medical bills.
    “Most of the idiots who read this blog live in shacks on wheels,” Once again, absolutely correct!! And they should all be taxed even more to pay for the medical bills of people whoo live in half million dollar homes, send thier kids to private schools and own SUVs, generally have much more of everything.

  39. Korla Pundit says:

    You want kids? You want me to pay your expenses for having those kids? In a nutshell, screw you.
    I want to take up glass blowing. And I want a Corvette. And I want to study Old English poetry at Oxford. And I want you to pay for it.
    You object?! But… but I had a 12-year-old read the script! You can’t possibly object, you monster!

  40. Peach says:

    the merits of being a small-business owner and living in an “ownership” society, and be a wage slave for one of the few corporations these days that will provide decent health insurance so we can avoid being taxed to pay for your sick kids.
    Please you moron, I am a self-employed small business owner, I just make a living that supports my family and financial responsibilities with no assistance. I also chose to leave a small business that provided me and my family decent health care because I knew I could make more on my own, eyes wide open on fulfilling health insurance myself. If I didn’t I’d have to change or should I call you in to subsidize my unsuccessful business because I don’t want to be a slave?

  41. Forbes says:

    Fact: The two Frost children were injured in a car accident.
    Question: Why didn’t auto liability insurance pay for the hospital and medical care?
    The story of the Frost family appears to have nothing to do with expansion of the S-Chip program. (The Frosts were covered, and the Dems bill was to raise the income eligibility threshold.)

  42. Xanthippas says:

    I also chose to leave a small business that provided me and my family decent health care because I knew I could make more on my own, eyes wide open on fulfilling health insurance myself.
    ====================================================
    Interesting. So, if your kids were injured in an accident and you were unable to get any coverage for them, and your business tanked, you’d adhere to your principles and refuse any government provided medical benefits for them?

  43. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “the Dems bill was to raise the income eligibility threshold.”
    Was it not to be raised to 80k a year? Hmmm, maybe a Saturn instead of a Tahoe and a person could afford $265 a month…..and help the environment.

  44. Xanthippas says:

    I want to take up glass blowing. And I want a Corvette. And I want to study Old English poetry at Oxford. And I want you to pay for it.
    ===========
    Well, that’s not really what we’re talking about here, as you might admit if you weren’t a hack.

  45. Korla Pundit says:

    The Dems really want to expand the program to include adults and illegal aliens. That’s the real issue here, not just a continuation of the program. The use of a child is only a smokescreen. And the mad thrashing by libs here and elsewhere, to the point of inviting harm on Malkin by any random nut, is just typical of the caught-in-the-act desperation of the marxist left.
    I believe the last child used by the HillaryCare people turned out to be actually a victim of child abuse, and wasn’t sick at all. She was being poisoned by her Hillary-supporting mother, who was finally arrested. But don’t attack the messenger, right? The messenger who was being poisoned by the sender of the message?

  46. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “Interesting. So, if your kids were injured in an accident and you were unable to get any coverage for them, and your business tanked, you’d adhere to your principles and refuse any government provided medical benefits for them?”
    I think the point would be to have the insurance BEFORE wrecking the SUV. The Frosts had S-CHIP beofre they wrecked thiers. Now what I would do is sell the 400,000 dollar house and move into one half as much.

  47. jr565 says:

    The whole dem attacking of Bush and the conservatives is whats the strawman. Bush is not out to end the program, in fact he wanted to expand it by 5 billion dollars (as opposed to 35 billion). All this liberal talking about the heartless republicans trying to deny health care to poor kids is simply demagoguery.
    But the dems had to bring out a little kid in an attempt to shame Bush is a shameless political ploy, and they got called on it, because their test case doesn’t appear to be all that poor and seems like a bogus case. Perhaps they should have found a better test case than a family of four that is getting near free education, owns their own 3000 foot home plus a second building and a business, and who graduated from Princeton and who have what appear to be very well off and connected parents. If anything, this appears to be the test case for why Bush vetoed the dems plan. Because its meant for POOR PEOPLE and the dems are trying to expand it to include not only adults but people in the middle class.

  48. Larry Sheldon says:

    If the kids were injured in an accident, what happened to the automobile insurance?

  49. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “Perhaps they should have found a better test case”
    I would be more than happy to introduce the dims to some actual poor people.

  50. The Brutal Truth says:

    Since this tactic has worked for the terrorists in Iraq(using children as human shields), I’m not the least bit surprised that: a)The libs would learn from their allies the terrorists, and try the same damn thing, and b)that this strategy would work, given the dumbed down condition of the average American.
    This silliness called National Health Care will either come piecemeal now, or it is sure to come in 2009. If you are smart, you will learn how to get around the system as it is being put in place, as your life will depend on it. The best thing for you to do is move out of any big city you might live in, as the demand for free health care in large American cities will make the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Sale look like a walkabout in the Outback. Befriend a doctor, get out of large metropolitan areas with large immigrant populations, learn how to keep yourself healthy, and learn alternate methods of obtaining antibiotics and other prescription drugs.
    Of course, if you are George Soros, or belong to the upper income class, then you won’t have any problem getting health care, as there will be an alternate system created for the rich. How’s that for class warfare, libs?

  51. Looking Glass says:

    Lunatic Moonbat Swarm! Is it a full moon or something? Maybe fall break at moonbat school?

  52. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    The Brutal Truth:
    Let’s add one more idea: Liquify as much of your assets as you can. Buy gold and learn how to barter.

  53. Lala says:

    When Hillary is President Mr. Frost will be REQUIRED to cover his employees with health insurance.

  54. buzz says:

    Yeah, why don’t one of you geniuses explain to us what happened to the car insurance.
    “Interesting. So, if your kids were injured in an accident and you were unable to get any coverage for them, and your business tanked, you’d adhere to your principles and refuse any government provided medical benefits for them?”
    Why don’t I have car insurance? Why would I be unable to get any coverage for my kids? See, you buy insurance BEFORE something bad happens. That’s kind of the point. My business tanked? Any other goal posts you would like to move? Since my business didn’t tank and I have a 1/2 million dollar house and own the building my business is in and have well off parents, then I think I see a way to buy insurance before running to the government asking them to take the money extracted from my neighbors and buy me some insurance with it.
    “What’s more, since when does a man who marries, starts a family, starts his own business, and works a hands-on job at woodworking (as opposed to a mindless store clerk job at Walmart or an evil John Edwards lawyer job) suddenly become some sort of evil parasite? It’s not even like he’s failed to provide his kids with insurance. His kids have insurance. He’s just chosen to use an existing federal program to help pay for it.”
    Oh, well hell. That’s different. That’s free money. I thought it was from tax money. My mistake.
    The very best part of this is everyone of you in here hurling insults at the host and commentators would do a hard 180 if we used this kid and this family to push for capital gains tax reductions for business owners, or tax cuts or school vouchers.

  55. jr565 says:

    xanthippas wrote:
    In other words, ignore what we Republicans have told you for decades about the values of hard work, the merits of being a small-business owner and living in an “ownership” society, and be a wage slave for one of the few corporations these days that will provide decent health insurance so we can avoid being taxed to pay for your sick kids. Unless of course that doesn’t apply to the argument I’m trying to make, in which case forget I said all that.
    Any principles left over there on the right? Let me get out my microscope. Umm…hmmm…no, not that I can see.
    But at least you’ve got bloggers like Dan Riehl!

    The dems lied in the first place about Bushs intent, as if he were trying to end the program. He wasn’t. ANd they then brought out the poor kid card, whereby they assumed they can make demagogic points about evil republicans trying ot deprive the poor of their healthcare, and beucase it was spoken by a 12 year old it would be spoke with absolute moral authority. Just like CIndy Sheehan, because she lost her son in the war, was somehow unimpeachable no matter what she said because of her circumstance. ITs the dems playing low ball class warfare demagogic warfare here, and now you’re mad that people did some digging and foudn out that the 12 year old your side propped up as some unimpeachable political dagger, has some dirty laundry? You guys should have found a better test case. And I’d recommend next time, going for the poor minority instead. That way you can also play the race card too. ONly at least make sure the family is dirt poor first (like maybe find someone from New Orleans who was so poor they couldn’t afford a car to get out of town with as opposed to someone who’s family owns an SUV as well as a 3000 foot home, and who is getting 40,000 dollars worth of education free, and who has rich parents.
    As to your point, being an entrepeneur doesn’t mean that you have a guaranteed outcome of success. Many businesses fail. But this family has been in business for years and have both a house and a building that are worth something. if the business is failing then the father should take whatever job he needs to so as to suport his family. If that means the business has to go, then so be it. Isnt there some degree of choice involved in his circumstances. You deride wage slaves, yet this business man knew his business wasn’t succeeding for years, yet continued to putter around and not earn money.He has a choice. His wife took another job, so could he. One that pays a salary.
    He could then sell off one or more of his properties, move into a smaller or cheaper house, refinance, take out a loan on his equity, use his business as a means to purchase family insurance, have assistance from his dad. He’s already getting a free education for two of his kids, how much does society have to cough up for him so that he can maintain his barely getting by lifestyle, when thats his choice to maintain?
    He owned his house for at least fifteen yeasr and bought it at 55,000. Even if he hasn’t paid off his mortgage there is plenty of equity in that house, and if he sold it he would get far more than 55,000 so it would be pure profit. This family is not doing bad for itself and it has plenty of options.

  56. Kman says:

    Why doesn’t the MSM report on the bad medical situations that happen to children in other countries that have government run medical systems? You know that there are probably many.
    If people in the US actually were told by the MSM the full facts about this couple and everything that led to their predicament, they would not be nearly as sympathetic.
    People would still contribute on a personal level to their predicament (like I do through different private charitable funds and church), but to force everyone in the country to fund their mistakes is wrong (and, no, their children are NOT mistakes, but the parents actions up to now are mistakes aplenty).
    We should not be rewarding carelessness and selfishness and there are always going to be cases of carelessness (even with the government involved).
    Do i believe in some form of government help? Yes I do, but this is the wrong case story.
    These kids are innocent (all small kids are) but they are victims of their parent’s foolishness and probably selfishness (they can’t be total idiots being able to go to such good schools all their life and having such successful parents themselves).
    I could never understand why the Dems don’t go after case stories many more people can relate to — like a 55 year old that can’t get insurance after being laid off that covers his/her preexisting conditions. (no, i’m much younger than 55). But I guess the Dems think that people will be less sympathetic with a 55 year old than a child with foolish parents.
    Or how about the Dems actually stressing the helping of people that are truly down on their luck and destitute that need help?

  57. wingnuts to iraq says:

    wingnuts to iraq
    wingnuts to iraq
    we don’t want to hear from you
    until you’re in iraq
    if you send them off to die
    but you stay home and watch TV
    you’re a coward, winguts!
    go to iraq
    go to iraq
    go to iraq
    go to iraq
    COWARDS

  58. Looking Glass says:

    “wingnuts to iraq” didn’t just have a psychotic episode. It was a “cleansing moment of clarity.”

  59. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “It was a “cleansing moment of clarity.”
    I think he can take Immodium for that

  60. buzz says:

    “wingnuts to iraq”
    I’m missing the connection between Iraq and this story. You really need to get out more.

  61. Tax Analyst says:

    “This silliness called National Health Care will either come piecemeal now, or it is sure to come in 2009. If you are smart, you will learn how to get around the system as it is being put in place, as your life will depend on it. The best thing for you to do is move out of any big city you might live in, as the demand for free health care in large American cities will make the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Sale look like a walkabout in the Outback. Befriend a doctor, get out of large metropolitan areas with large immigrant populations, learn how to keep yourself healthy, and learn alternate methods of obtaining antibiotics and other prescription drugs.”
    So, got your “Survivalist Bunker” all in place, have you now? But all kidding aside,I believe the most likely scenario is quite a bit of initial confusion, followed by people seeking information on how to best obtain adequate Health Care for their families, followed by some people figuring out how it works and other’s having a tougher time of it. That’s going to happen whenever any major change comes down. There’s no question it will be trying at first, no matter what or how it is done. But the point is that something NEEDS to be done – the current system is inadequate and nonsensical. It leaves the uninsured to wait until treatable conditions become serious and then seek help at the Emergency Room, which is extremely expensive and an inefficient way to deal with most illnesses. It leaves many of the middle-class locked into jobs that perhaps do not suit them well and perhaps do not suit the economy as a whole all that well, either. It leaves Doctor’s opting out of Insurance programs due to issues regarding Insurance Company payment scales and the time it takes to actually receive those payments. What we have now is a mess and we SHOULD be looking at ways of improving it instead of peeking in our neighbors back windows to try and determine if they are “truly worthy” by whatever nebulous standards an individual might wish to employ.
    Or, you know, maybe you enjoy the current system and it’s innate and unfailing fairness.

  62. Lala says:

    My daughter attended University in Moscow a few years ago. She called me and said she was sick with a fever so I told her to take two aspirin and call me back in a couple of hours. Instead the house warden called an ambulance and she was taken to Infectious Disease Hospital Number 3 (sounds like a parking lot). On arrival she was looked at by two people sitting at a desk. She was not examined, just looked at. Then she was given sheets to make her bed with and escorted to her bed by a twelve year old consumptive who asked her for a cigarette.
    She made her bed herself and then someone came in and gave her two aspirin and a glass of contaminated Russian water. She told them that she, as a foreigner, could not drink their water and asked for bottled. They didn’t have any so they boiled some water and gave her tea. She was not given any food; I think the patients have to provide their own.
    After a while she decided she did not want to stay there and told them she wanted to leave. Impossible, they said, your clothes are locked up in another building and we can’t get them until morning.
    The following morning they tried to keep her there. She was told that they wanted her to stay there for two weeks. She had to fight to get her clothing and get out.
    She returned to her lodging and was fine. I told her next time call the Jewish Brigade in Moscow, they run their own ambulances and clinics because things are so bad there.

  63. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “What we have now is a mess and we SHOULD be looking at ways of improving it.”
    You make a great deal of sense in that we do need a change. Tort reform may be one good start. Doctors with lower premiums of thier own would not need to charge as much. Families at the 80k level should be able to afford a good plan. Yet, thier should be something from the government available..voluntarily. For those of us who prefer insurance to a second home, leave us alone. For those on government insurance, preventive care should be mandatory. Now, who should pay for the care of people who are here illegally and pay no taxes?
    Yes, there are lots of ways to create a better system of care. Many of them do not involve taking my money at gun point.

  64. Johnny Coelacanth says:

    Attacking a 12 year old boy and his family in the name of partisan politics? Another average day on the right wing blogosphere. I am greatly encouraged. If this is all the political will the right can muster these days, you guys are going to -love- President Clinton redux.
    Oh, and Dan says Mr. Frost never learned responsibility for himself. Riiight. Because starting your own business and owning your own home just don’t demonstrate responsibility. I haven’t been here in a while, but it’s good to know some things never change: Dan Riehl still can’t write worth a crap and his fans are still rancidly stupid.

  65. The Last Patriot says:

    Here, here, Dan. Amen. Good parents sacrifice for their children. That, by my defintion, is what a good parent is. A mother or father, or both, who see the future of their children as their only legacy on this planet and are willing to forego every extraneous, non-essential expense to ensure their kids have everything they need to be happy, healthy, well adjusted citizens.
    My mother and father raised seven, yes seven, children and had to do without so much that would have made their lives more satisfying and easier. I never heard a single complaint about how much easier their lives could have been if only they’d denied myself or any of my siblings some of the things we thought we would die if didn’t have like bicycles, and a pile of presents every Christmas, and big birthday parties every year. My Mom and Dad, God love ‘em, went out and worked two and sometimes three jobs each to make sure we never wanted for anything. And it was never easy for them.
    My father, aside from his full-time job as a tool and die maker, worked evenings and weekends selling fences and built a sucessful business through the 1960’s and early 1970’s only to have it collapse under Jimmy the Dhimmi Carter’s disasterous economic policies. He could easily have hung his head and fell back on the government to pay his way, but he knew that the only way to keep us fed, clothed and insured was to keep fighting and scrimping and saving. Well, we never missed a meal, never went naked (which is nice in the Midwest during January), and we always had enough medical insurance to cover all the attending broken bones, stitches, appendixes, tooth braces, births, etc…
    He is my hero, not because he is my Dad, but because he showed me by example what a good parent is and what a good parent does for his children. Today, all seven of us have degrees in one field or another, and 4 of us own our own businesses. Both of my parents are now retired and enjoy travelling the country at their leisure because they wouldn’t allow themselves to fall into the trap of thinking that the government would always bail them out when they hit upon tough times. They tightend up their belts a notch or two, and showed my brothers and sister what good parents, and good Americans have to do to succeed at being both.
    The Frosts? Seems to me they thought they could grab a little of media sunshine and things might start popping for the better. Unfortunately, they put their trust in unscrupulous, scumbag Democrats (I know, that’s triply redundant) and broke the cardinal rule of parenting: Never , ever, let dirtbags get near your kids.

  66. Kman says:

    Johnny,
    Why didn’t the father have health insurance for his family or at least for his kids? Didn’t he care about his kids?

  67. Worst President Ever says:

    Orrin Hatch and Chuck Grassley both came out in support of SCHIP. Neither’s exactly a flaming liberal. For Democrats, Bush has turned into the gift that just keeps giving. By the time the elections roll around, the guy will be radioactive and every dumbass veto like this just shows how out-of-touch he is and adds to the coming Democratic landslide. Why do you think they vetoed it as quietly as they could with no cameras to record the act?
    By the way, here’s the advice Grassley gave Dems on this issue – send the SCHIP measure to Bush repeatedly until the president agreed to sign it.
    And the title of this thread is also somewhat humorous – Michelle Malkin’s out doing drive-bys of the Frost family’s house, but it’s Think Progress that won’t let it go. ROTFLMAO

  68. Johnny Coelacanth says:

    “Why didn’t the father have health insurance for his family or at least for his kids? Didn’t he care about his kids?”
    But the father _did_ have health insurance for his kids. It was called SCHIP (perhaps you’ve heard of it). It worked so well that young Graeme Frost was invited to go on the radio and talk about how it helped him.

  69. Paul A' Barge says:

    “Mrs. Frost, 26 years old, is a receptionist at the Cat Hospital at Towson, in Baltimore. She graduated from Towson State University”
    Good lord. She has a college degree, and when married at 26 years old held a job as a receptionist at a pet hospital?
    And, she wants my tax dollars?

  70. Paul A' Barge says:

    “Orrin Hatch and Chuck Grassley both came out in support of SCHIP”.
    Lots of folks support SCHIP. It’s the new SCHIP 2 on steroids that sucks… because the new SCHIP 2 wants to put middle class losers on government run health care.

  71. Xanthippas says:

    And, she wants my tax dollars?
    =============
    Bush wants them for the war. Gonna hide your wallet?
    No?

  72. Xanthippas says:

    Seems to me they thought they could grab a little of media sunshine and things might start popping for the better.
    ===========
    This brought to you from the Department of Assholes Who Don’t Know What They’re Talking About.

  73. Xanthippas says:

    Or how about the Dems actually stressing the helping of people that are truly down on their luck and destitute that need help?
    ==============
    You mean like the Frosts?
    Gosh, how’s that working out?

  74. Drew says:

    Dan,
    Great to see what a bunch of caring and considerate folks you have as your audience. Great work. You guys can get all lathered up in faux outrage when the Democrats try to get more Americans access to affordable healthcare. I mean what a horrible misuse of taxpayer money. You must be proud to take apart a family who is just trying to do the best for their kids. You sir are a model American and Republican. Fuckwad!

  75. Xanthippas says:

    He owned his house for at least fifteen yeasr and bought it at 55,000. Even if he hasn’t paid off his mortgage there is plenty of equity in that house, and if he sold it he would get far more than 55,000 so it would be pure profit.
    ====================
    Welcome to Republican Health Care, where you are required to sell your home to get care for your sick and wounded kids. All hail the ownership society!

  76. Xanthippas says:

    This silliness called National Health Care will either come piecemeal now, or it is sure to come in 2009. If you are smart, you will learn how to get around the system as it is being put in place, as your life will depend on it.
    =========================
    Here’s a tip.
    GO TO IRAN.

  77. Xanthippas says:

    But the dems had to bring out a little kid in an attempt to shame Bush is a shameless political ploy
    =========
    You’re right, it was a bad idea. It only works when your President has some shame.

  78. Johnny Coelacanth says:

    “And, she wants my tax dollars?”
    She already has your tax dollars, genius. And then what? I know more than one college graduate who has or had to work low level jobs. I love your line about “middle class losers.” Très amusant.

  79. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    Here’s a tip.
    GO TO IRAN.
    Why? Wait a few short years and it will be like that here
    Questions. Not that any of you has the guts to answer any. Just how far are you willing to go? How much tax are you willing to pay for utopia? 40,50,60 percent of your income? I mean I’m all for people being paid what they’re actually worth. example fire fighters,cops six figures and actors/athletes just above poverty. But how far are you REALLY willing to go?

  80. The Last Patriot says:

    ===========
    Seems to me they thought they could grab a little of media sunshine and things might start popping for the better.
    ===========
    This brought to you from the Department of Assholes Who Don’t Know What They’re Talking About.
    ===========
    Awwwww. Whassamatter Xanthippas? Strike a nerve, did I? What would ever make someone think some left-wing loser would use his kids as a means of bettering his own financial position by exposing them nationally to shameless partisan posturing?
    Oh, and another thing my Dad taught me: When the first reponse to an argument is profanity, the profane have no legitmate reponse and have already lost.
    Now, go stuff a bar of Zest in your mouth and go sit in the corner like a good little troll.

  81. Xanthippas says:

    But how far are you REALLY willing to go?
    ==============
    I am willing for the government to take 50% of your income, so long as you are required to sell your home to pay your taxes.

  82. IslamoLlama says:

    “And the title of this thread is also somewhat humorous – Michelle Malkin’s out doing drive-bys of the Frost family’s house, but it’s Think Progress that won’t let it go. ROTFLMAO”
    Yeah, I’m sorry, but between Mark Foley, Larry Craig, and Stalker Malkin, the right wing really has turned into the party of creepy old pervs. Was Michelle too good to just ask the Frosts for an interview? Nah, screw that. Let’s drive by their house and peak through windows! Dig up gossip from the neighbors! Scope out bumper stickers!
    Linsey Lohan and Britney Spears, eat your hearts out. Now every random kid on TV gets his own paparazzi tail-gaters.

  83. Xanthippas says:

    Strike a nerve, did I?
    ========
    Yes, the nerve that is especially attuned to assholes who don’t know what they’re talking about. As you can imagine, it’s quite raw after several years of reading blogs like this one.

  84. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “it’s quite raw after several years of reading blogs like this one.”
    So why do it? You contribute nothing, aren’t even a citizen. Why not go do something worthy of your intelligence?

  85. Worst President Ever says:

    SCHIP 2 – Wrong. Money going to families making $80,000 a year – Wrong. I can understand why conservatives want to try to make the issue some 12 year old kid, because this veto has the potential to be disastrous for Republicans. Unending War – yes. Tax cuts for the rich – yes. Health Care for poor kids – no f’ing way. That’s the America Bush wants.
    ********
    Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, a loyal supporter of the Bush White House, responded angrily to the president during a Capitol Hill news conference.
    “Are families of four making $83,000 going to get benefit(s) under this? Not unless the administration agrees to it. This bill does not call for that high level of expenditure,” Hatch said.
    Hatch explained that the only way such families would get SCHIP coverage would be if their states petitioned the administration for a waiver — just like under the current program. When New York, made such a petition, the Bush administration turned it down.
    The new law would be the same, Hatch said, and even if the White House were willing to grant waivers, such families would make up just a tiny percentage of those eligible.
    “To call this a step toward one-size-fits-all, government-mandated health care is just political in my view,” he said. “This is a block grant. States have tremendous power over this bill — not total power, but power.”
    Hatch said he found the veto difficult to understand, and senior Republican Sen. Charles Grassley said the same thing.
    “Every effort was made to bring the administration into the process, but it decided to veto the bill, I think, before it was even written. From their position, it was either my way or the highway. Well, that’s not how the legislative process works,” the Iowa senator said.

  86. Johnny Coelacanth says:

    “But how far are you REALLY willing to go?”
    Oh, I’d be willing to part with 50 percent if it meant generous government health care, free college education and all the perqs that come with living in socialist hellholes like Sweden. As it is, I pay 20 percent in taxes and I get nothing but endless war and crumbling infrastructure.

  87. Xanthippas says:

    ,aren’t even a citizen.
    =========
    Have I been Malkinized already? Is that you Wahoo, looking in my window? Can you see me smoking this cigar, drinking brandy, counting the cash from my landscaping business and preparing to deposit my welfare check?

  88. IslamoLlama says:

    But the dems had to bring out a little kid in an attempt to shame Bush is a shameless political ploy
    =========
    You’re right, it was a bad idea. It only works when your President has some shame.
    =========
    Oh, but Xanth, you’re totally forgetting Bush’s favorite prop. Snowflake babies! Nothing like hiding behind a dozen five-year-old kids when you’re making veto number one. Then he hid behind soldiers while making veto number two. Now, however, it looks like he’s got nothing to hide behind, so its time to come out guns blazing.
    When Republicans lose another landslide in ’08, and all the wingnuts are holed up in bunkers, waiting for the end of days, asking what went wrong, at least we’ll have Dan Riehl’s web page archives to explain it in detail.

  89. The Brutal Truth says:

    Ah, Lala, forget the Russian system, we have the Cuban system for our model, given over by Michael Moore and his band of Merry Morons. That the US would even need to have this discussion is insane, and the interference of the US Government via programs too numerous to mention, or even know, for that matter, is part of the blame.
    If you people think National Health Care is going to do anything other than meltdown, then you need to seek mental health care now. I wish you people would actually think, I mean, really think about what you are proposing here. These are the major problems I foresee in the system:
    1. An initial demand that will be impossible to meet, so we will see health care rationing in one form or another within 6 months of its inception.
    2. Fraud on a massive scale.
    3. A huge difference in the estimated versus the actual cost of the program. It will cost much more than estimated, and I mean much more.
    4. The US will become a dumping ground for 3rd worlders with cancer, tuberculosis, and other diseases that are extremely expensive to treat, but will be made available to illegal aliens. As is happening in New York and other states even as we speak, so don’t say this won’t happen. You would be lying.
    5. Our enemies will come here, take advantage of the system, and will use the benefits we give out to bankrupt us. They are already doing this with welfare and other forms of public aid, especially in Europe.
    As for National Health Care vs. the War in Iraq, not much of a comparison. The cost of a public health care system would dwarf the War in Iraq, and would compare more to WWII in actual cost per capita. We couldn’t last for very many years.

  90. Kman says:

    Xanthippas,
    Come on now. Really. I don’t think that the Frost’s were truly down on their luck and destitute. And I think that most people would agree with me. By the way, could you please address people here in not such a mean spirited manner?
    Johnny,
    Thanks for not addressing me in a mean spirited manner. I just want to get to know the facts better. Did the Frost’s have the SCHIP before the accident? Couldn’t find in some of the stories about this. I’m assuming they did. Don’t get me wrong, I probably would support some form of the SCHIP. We don’t have SCHIP in my state. I do recognize the problem with the lower middle class obtaining health care that puts a great strain on them — it is with identifying what is lower middle class. It is with identifying where to “draw the line”. Also, don’t always assume that people who are for the government to restrain spending are also for funding the war indefinitely.

  91. curvedbrain says:

    Check out the beautiful kitchen. Very elegantly done. So far, I don’t see any way to know for sure how close or how far away this family is from “just getting by”, but something smells rotten about their ‘daddy is just a poor woodworker and we need help’ story, especially given the grandparents of the children, and the parents’ own educational backgrounds.. not to mention the real estate which they own. And for cryin’ out loud, will you leftists quit lying that the 12 year old was “attacked”, or that the Frost family was “attacked”? They weren’t attacked. They sent their kid out on the public political stage as a tool to read Dem talking points, and legitimate questions were raised about their story that they and the Dems have been pushing. Legitimate questions about their situation which should have been raised by the MSM.. but weren’t, because the MSM couldn’t be bothered to check such details when the story fit so well with the narrative.

  92. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    First statement “Wrong. Money going to families making $80,000 a year -”
    Followed by the self cancelling: ”
    “Are families of four making $83,000 going to get benefit(s) under this? Not unless the administration agrees to it.” The second part “Not unless the administration agrees to it.” being the kicker. So people who make 80k a year will NOT be getting benefits but people who 83k might?

  93. Johnny Coelacanth says:

    “The cost of a public health care system would dwarf the War in Iraq, and would compare more to WWII in actual cost per capita. We couldn’t last for very many years.”
    Thank you. This explains the economic collapse of Canada and Sweden. They should have stuck to efficient systems like ours, and they’d be fine today.

  94. IslamoLlama says:

    Oh, I’d be willing to part with 50 percent if it meant generous government health care, free college education and all the perqs that come with living in socialist hellholes like Sweden.
    ===========
    Hahahahaha! Oh man. That’s freak’n rich. Yeah, poor Sweden, I weep daily for their 5 weeks paid vacation, fully paid college tuition, universal health care, and 5.6% unemployment rate (that’s all of 0.9% higher than the US, for those keeping score). They really suffer up in Sweden. If it wasn’t for the fact that you need to be fluent in the language to get a job up there, I’d have kissed the states goodbye when I discovered the “hell hole” just last summer, vacationing with friends.
    Total nightmare over there. Really.

  95. ShiddyButt says:

    You people are pigs. Fuck you and your party. I hope you all rot in hell.

  96. templar knight says:

    Hey, IslamoBoob, are you spilling the blood of “not liberals” today? How is that revolution thing going for you, or could it be that you are nothing but a cowardly loudmouth? Yep, coward hiding behind children, that’s you, you little chickenshit bastard. NOW, STFU!

  97. curvedbrain says:

    This explains the economic collapse of Canada and Sweden. They should have stuck to efficient systems like ours, and they’d be fine today.
    Well, Canada has long waiting lists for many procedures, and a fraction of the MRI’s per capita as we have in the US. As for Sweden’s standard of living compared to ours, see here http://www.manews.org/06study.html

  98. curvedbrain says:

    You people are pigs. Fuck you and your party. I hope you all rot in hell.
    Stay classy, liberals.

  99. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “If it wasn’t for the fact that you need to be fluent in the language to get a job up there.”
    Well you should let learning a language stop you from happiness. If you find an english speaking country where a man can TRULY be free without the govt telling him whee he can live and how to live, let me know.

  100. Johnny Coelacanth says:

    “If you find an english speaking country where a man can TRULY be free without the govt telling him whee he can live and how to live, let me know.”
    I suggest the Australian Outback, post haste. Please go as soon as you can.

  101. ShiddyButt says:

    As I said,feveredbrain, fuck you. Classy, thats rich.

  102. Worst President Ever says:

    “So people who make 80k a year will NOT be getting benefits but people who 83k might? ”
    A nitpicker. My mistake, it should all read as $83,000. No family at that income level has qualified for SCHIP.
    And, in Senator Hatch’s words, even should some state get a White House waiver, “such families would make up just a tiny percentage of those eligible.”

  103. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “I suggest the Australian Outback, post haste. Please go as soon as you can.”
    Sorry fish boy Oz doesn’t cut it either.

  104. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    Wasn’t so much a nit pick. either they WONT or they MIGHT, the extra 3 grand was simply quoting you, qouting me.

  105. Worst President Ever says:

    Let’s quote Bush than and hope you’ll hold him to the same standards of accuracy. Perhaps you can explain what “allow” means here.
    “Mr. Bush argued that the Democratic bill would raise taxes and allow children whose families earn up to $83,000 a year to enroll.”

  106. Lala says:

    The Canadian health care system is strange. There is a shortage of doctors and so there is a waiting list to get one. In order to see a specialist one must first see the family doctor. But if one has no family doctor then there is no health care.
    I saw it on TV recently where every week the Town Clerk pulls a name out of a hat and then calls that person on the phone to tell him/her Congratulations, you now have a family doctor.

  107. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “Perhaps you can explain what “allow” means here.”
    There is no argument. The bill would raise taxes and he is saying that families could “enroll” in the plan, thus recieving the benefit. Hatch says no they wont, but then again they might.

  108. Worst President Ever says:

    No, families making above 300% of federal poverty level, about $60,000 for a family of four and far below $83,000 – cannot enroll in the program that passed Congress.

  109. Lala says:

    Isn’t there also a provision to cover “children” up to 25 years of age?

  110. BobInStamford says:

    Let’s get this straight, rednecks. There is money for invisible WMD hunts and invasions of countries that did not attack us on 9/11 but there is none for healthcare for American children?
    You deadender 28%ers are an interesting bunch. Ever consider that if kids aren’t healthy they can’t grow up and fight your war on ‘terror’?
    Anyway, best of luck on your silly little battles.

  111. Lala says:

    I believe it is New York that is asking that the cap be $80,000.00 because of the high cost of living in the state.

  112. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    “No, families making above 300% of federal poverty level, about $60,000 for a family of four and far below $83,000 – cannot enroll in the program that passed Congress.”
    “”Are families of four making $83,000 going to get benefit(s) under this? Not unless the administration agrees to it.”
    Not unless the administration agrees to it……In other words the door is open

  113. dumbblonde says:

    Once upon a time, I was a single parent, solely responsible for the support of my infant daughter. I had no family living nearby to help out. This was during a recession (’90-91). I felt lucky to have found a job at all, especially as my education was unfinished at that time. My starting salary was $24,000, with ZERO health insurance. This was in a major city, where rent, living expenses, and quality child care were NOT cheap. I found a major medical policy which covered both of us for about $100 per month, and a term life insurance policy so my daughter would be provided for. Doctor visits were paid out of pocket, and unexpected illnesses or missed work took a major bite out of my wallet.
    Time passed. I worked hard, finished school, and moved into much better positions. It was never easy, but we made it.
    At no time did I expect or look for assistance. It was my responsibility to take care of myself and my child. I did just fine, thanks very much.

  114. Lala says:

    Wow, $24,000.00 was a good starting salary in 1991. My company closed down and the best I could get was $6.00 an hour to start. So I told my husband he could work overtime at his job and I’d stay home and take care of the kids.

  115. Worst President Ever says:

    “Not unless the administration agrees to it……In other words the door is open”
    Again, the bill that passed does not allow a family making more than around $60,000 a year into the program. Period. Bush’s statement is wrong and language is intentionally misleading.

  116. Democrats – Welfare for RICH People

  117. Lala says:

    Childrens Health First Act by Hillary calls for 400 percent of the poverty level and insuring children up to the age of 25

  118. Wahoo Willie Sez says:

    Worst: I like someone who can actually debate on points rather than partisan BS like some of these people. You’ve convinced me to look up the actual bill and pay no attention to the wings. However, does not change my opinion of the Frosts.

  119. Blue Texan says:

    “Get off your lazy asses and tell your sick kids to suck it up” is a real winner political winner there, Danboy. Good luck with that at the polls next year.
    Given that 75% of the country supported the bill Bush vetoed, it’s easy to see why you’d resort to vilifying this family that supports it.
    Genius!

  120. Tax Analyst says:

    “Once upon a time, I was a single parent, solely responsible for the support of my infant daughter. I had no family living nearby to help out. This was during a recession (’90-91). I felt lucky to have found a job at all, especially as my education was unfinished at that time. My starting salary was $24,000, with ZERO health insurance. This was in a major city, where rent, living expenses, and quality child care were NOT cheap. I found a major medical policy which covered both of us for about $100 per month, and a term life insurance policy so my daughter would be provided for. Doctor visits were paid out of pocket, and unexpected illnesses or missed work took a major bite out of my wallet.
    Time passed. I worked hard, finished school, and moved into much better positions. It was never easy, but we made it.
    At no time did I expect or look for assistance. It was my responsibility to take care of myself and my child. I did just fine, thanks very much.”
    So that’s it? It worked out OK for you, so “Case Closed” because everybody should just do the same thing and cross their fingers? Well, sincere congratulations on handling everything so nicely and managing not to get ill while pulling it off. Honestly, if what everyone wants is “every man(or woman, as the case may be)for him/her self”, well, I guess that’s a plan…sort of. We’ll just toss everyone who falls short of your gritty little saga onto the nearest compost heap and send around a privately contracted sweeper later on to dispose of the remains. Nice, clean, easy. Hardly any “gummint” intervention and all except those failing to have your level of intestinal fortitude/good luck will live happily ever after.
    Personal anecdotes – yes, that will be our future set of guidelines/criteria for National Health Care; if Ms. Single-Mother-of-the-Year, circa 1990-1991 can do it, well, then by God, so can everyone. Just roll up those sleeves, grit your teeth, take hold of your own bootstraps and pull…sure.
    Jeezus, I’m sorely tempted to regale you with my own personal life story, but you know what – I’m fine no matter what they decide. For those so concerned, I’m not extracting $1 of public money towards my health care. Please be so kind as to take MY share of the funds you so niggardly would withhold from those in need and squat directly upon it. But while I am “fine” others are not, and I firmly believe we can provide better health care to our citizens if we decide to do so. Why don’t we? I say we should be checking out the vested interests and asking WHY things must remain as they are. That’s a straight-forward question, and I think we should expect a straight-forward answer instead of a lot of scare stories and dire predictions of a medical apocalypse. But you won’t get a straight-forward answer because they would have to tell you that the Insurance industry makes a whole lot of money out of the current situation and they just would rather not cut loose of it, even if it were for a program that would benefit most Americans and alleviate a lot of death and suffering, not to mention the attendant anxiety health issues cause so many today. Other industrial nations offer health care to their citizens and the world hasn’t ended – it still spins. Are they perfect? I doubt it. Does that mean that we must retain our current “system”, if that’s what you want to call it, in perpetuity? What, was there some Biblical proclamation, “Thus was the Health Care system of 10 A.D., so thus it shall always be?” If so, please give me one of those straight-forward answers as to why, but spare me the “Personal Anecdote” solution, because I’m not you and neither is the guy down the block and probably not the immigrant who’s busting his ass to pick your god-damned lettuce, either.
    But hey, I still respect all your marvelous grit and determination and I’m sure it’ll get you a Reserved Ticket to Heaven in the by-and-by, so don’t feel like you aren’t being applauded or awarded enough, OK?

  121. Lala says:

    Well I’m in favor of having my death alleviated.

  122. A.W. says:

    Ah, this is just the latest round of Dem selective immunity.
    John Kerry beats us over the head with his medals, thinking that 3 months in ‘nam means he should automatically be president. But if you question whether he actually deserves those medals, even though he definitely lied about some of his experience over there, well that is incredibly unfair, low, etc.
    And don’t you dare question any dem’s patriotism. But if a general dares to report good news from Iraq, he is accused of beytraying us. And if Rush Limbaugh has the termerity to point out that some of those lefty idiots claiming to be soldiers are a tad “phony” then Harry Reid will go on the floor of the Senate and call you unpatriotic.
    Then they parade out Cindy Sheehan as the peace mom, a regular woman who just is mad that her son is dead. And if you dare point out that she is apparently an America-hating nutjob who calls the men who murdered her son “freedom fighters.”
    So, they use children to sell their health care plan, to show a typical family that just can’t afford it that evil Chimpy McHitlerburton is keeping from getting his health insurance. And then if anyone points out that, what do you know? They CAN afford health insurance, then that is somehow over the line.
    Really, is anyone surprised by this routine anymore?
    But here is the real story here: follow the money. I will give you even money that this “ordinary family” is connected in some signficant way to a big Dem donor. Hence why such a ridiculous example was used.

  123. Inspector Callahan says:

    Personal anecdotes – yes, that will be our future set of guidelines/criteria for National Health Care; if Ms. Single-Mother-of-the-Year, circa 1990-1991 can do it, well, then by God, so can everyone. Just roll up those sleeves, grit your teeth, take hold of your own bootstraps and pull…sure.
    Does the “Tax Analyst” see the irony of this statement? Aren’t the Frosts “personal anecdotes”? So we should blanket 1/2 the middle class with “free” health care, because of a personal anecdote? LMAO
    Yes, the nerve that is especially attuned to assholes who don’t know what they’re talking about.
    Sorry Xanthippas, I’ve been in the health care business in this country for 19 years, and you’re the one who doesn’t know what you’re talking about. Anyone who says the healthcare system in this country is bad, is a blithering idiot. If you can give me examples, in the U.S., where people have to wait 6 months for a coronary bypass graft, or be forced into quitting a bad habit (smoking), before he can get health care, then you’ll have a point. If you can give me examples of people being turned away from emergency rooms who need care (hint – it’s against federal law to do so), then you’ll have a point.
    What I see here from the lefty-drones is the usual emotional knee-jerk reactions – no actual discussion of the truth of the matter in Riehl’s post, and ad-hominem attacks.
    The lefty-drones may outnumber the logical posters here, but that doesn’t mean you’re right. Blinding stupidity is something a lot of people have.
    TV (Harry)

  124. daveincoca says:

    Republicans = asswipes.
    Q.E.D.

  125. Jay Currie says:

    While I am inclined to think that the Democrats picked the wrong poster child and, sadly, that they deserve the pummeling they are getting, I have to say the ignorance about single payer systems exhibited here is astonishing.
    If you have a minute go read my 2004 piece on the Canadian medical system and its outcomes as compared to the US “systems”. Ours is cheaper as a percentage of GDP and more effective in terms of life expectancy.
    http://longposts.blogspot.com/2004/12/healthier-than-you-might-think-thank.html

  126. Terry Gain says:

    John Chretien, former Prime Minister of Canada was recently playing golf with a cariologist. He mentioned to the good doctor that he had been having some chest pains. The next day, the cardiologist (waiving the god only knows how long waiting period) examined Chretien. The day after (again waiving the the god only knows how long waiting period) the good doctor performed a quadruple bypass on Chretien.
    Canadians are thrilled that that they have a univeral health care system where everyone is treated the same and it is in fact illegal for anyone to pay to jump the queue.
    Chretien just got lucky in his choice of golf partners. The Canadian system is wonderful. Everyone is entitled to the same declining quality of care. And the system is so affordable. You’d be amazed at how much money you save when those waiting for treatment die off.
    Judging by the posts here not a few Americans are clamoring for the same system. And it appears not to take too much to convince them they need the same wonderful socialized medicine that Canadians have. A 12 year old of a blue blood named Halsey is injured while a passenger in the family’s SUV. Dad wasn’t reposnsible enough to purchase motor vehicle insurance which would have covered his son’s treatment. No problem. The state -i.e. those who don’t live in $500.000.00 houses should pay.
    Poor Halsey only owns a $500.000.00 house and a $200.000.00 shop. Poor Halsey can’t afford insurance. His wife only makes $15,000.00 per year, which tells me she doesn’t work a full week. Fair enough, she has four kids to care for. But what about blue blooded Halsey? He doesn’t make more than $30,000.00 per year and presumably this includes the rent he receives from his tenant?
    Perhaps a reporter will interview poor Halsey and ask why he abused his son by having him do a stupid political ad. I suggest that the reporter shake Halsey’s hand long enough to determine whether there are any callouses on this woodworker’s hands. And he might ask how much the Democrats paid the kid for the ad.

  127. Lesley says:

    Hey Dan, this example of how health care insurance eligibility works in Canada (this is the same in all provinces) is for you.
    “Your eligibility for Ontario health coverage is not determined by whether you have a job or are unemployed, or where you pay your income tax. It is based solely on your meeting one of the above citizenship or immigration categories and on you making your permanent and principal home in Ontario.”
    There is no discrimination. You only need to prove you reside in the province and be a citizen or landed immigrant. EVERYONE RECEIVES COVERAGE. Poor, rich, one kid, 5 kids, pink kids, blue kids, green eggs and ham eating families or granola-eating hippies. Our health plan DOESN’T CARE.
    The Frosts are welcome to move to Canada. The country is desperate for skilled tradespeople and educated workers. Oh, and since school enrollments are declining because of the low birth rate, large families won’t be considered a burden. Indeed, the economy won’t be sustainable at the current birth rate, which is why immigration quotas are increasing. This is also true for the US but wingnuts like Dan are too thick to realize it.

  128. Blue Texan says:

    While I am inclined to think that the Democrats picked the wrong poster child and, sadly, that they deserve the pummeling they are getting…
    Er, pummeling? By whom?
    75% of the country back the Democratic bill. Democrats are only being “pummeled” by Bush dead-enders like Riehl and Malkin, who will bash them no matter what they do.
    Again, brilliant politics. Let’s denounce a really, really popular piece of legislation and smear a family that supports the majority view. That’ll work!
    G-O-P! G-O-P! G-O-P!

  129. Lesley says:

    This message is for Terry Gain. I urge you to move to the US where your health insurance will cost you upwards of $1200 a month with a $3000 deductible per family member. Get back to me when you get cancer and find out your insurer won’t pay for your chemo treatments.
    The health system in Canada has its problems but it is INFINITELY better than the US system.
    My mother died in a palliative care ward in an Ontario hospital. On her insurance alone she received round the clock care from five nurses and four doctors, all of whom were specialists in pain management and palliative care. I can’t say enough about how the system helped our family through this crisis. At no time did they ask for my credit card or any money.
    If you want the US system, MOVE THERE. Just quit whining and bitching about a system that for the most part works well when it’s funded. Harper and Chretien before him wanted to kill it, and God knows they are trying to turn it into a private care system like the US. Over my dead body will they get away with it.
    I would say to asshole Canadians like yourself who operate on the “me” principle to just get out of this country altogether. You’re not needed or wanted. You contribute nothing. Just get the hell out.

  130. Korla Pundit says:

    Please explain why my good friends from the UK had to buy “Holiday Insurance” for their dad and hustle him into a New York trip, where he [surprise!] suddenly realized he needed heart surgery and a month in the hospital. Even with a nice chunk of wealth, he would have died on a waiting list in his beloved Socialist state of “free” healthcare. This is common practice for those with money in England and Canada. But those who don’t have such luxury to travel to the U.S. with “holiday insurance” are left to die in a bureaucratic hellhole.
    Not here. Nobody is denied medical care. Even illegals get free healthcare already. The only thing the Dems are pushing for now is to illegalize private medicine. That will give them the power over life and death in this country.

  131. Inspector Callahan says:

    “75% of the country back the Democratic bill. Democrats are only being “pummeled” by Bush dead-enders like Riehl and Malkin, who will bash them no matter what they do.”
    Because a chunk of people “agree” with something, doesn’t make them right. Especially since they were brainwashed by morons like Blue Texan and his cohorts in the major news media over the last 14 years into thinking that it’s such a great idea. I bet Blue Texan didn’t like the idea that more than 1/2 the people in the country voted for Bush the last election. I mean, it’s more that 50%, so they MUST be right.
    “The health system in Canada has its problems but it is INFINITELY better than the US system. My mother died in a palliative care ward in an Ontario hospital. On her insurance alone she received round the clock care from five nurses and four doctors, all of whom were specialists in pain management and palliative care. I can’t say enough about how the system helped our family through this crisis. At no time did they ask for my credit card or any money.”
    And of course, this would NEVER have happened in the U.S. – her mother would have died earlier. Right? Is Leslie saying this WOULD have happened here? Got any evidence of that? Since you live over there, you must know so well how things are here.
    “I would say to asshole Canadians like yourself who operate on the “me” principle to just get out of this country altogether. You’re not needed or wanted. You contribute nothing. Just get the hell out.”
    Actually, I agree with this statement. Let’s trade to Canada all of the idiot lefties (like Blue Texan – he can be called Blue Ontarian!!), and we’ll get all of the intelligent Canadians over here. Maybe then we’ll get some logical thinking people in charge. Some of us would LOVE to have you here, Terry.
    TV (Harry)

  132. Inspector Callahan says:

    “Not here. Nobody is denied medical care. Even illegals get free healthcare already. The only thing the Dems are pushing for now is to illegalize private medicine. That will give them the power over life and death in this country.”
    Don’t bother, Korla. Logic is completely fleeting to these people. When you give a reasoned, logical critique of the Canadian health system (as Terry did), and Leslie comes along with spittle flying, and can’t even try to counter the arguments, you know it’s futile. They’re all drones.
    TV (Harry)

  133. Lord Whorfin says:

    I don’t know if anyone has posted this above, but health insurance payments for the self employed have a pretty big tax savings.

  134. Right Voices says:

    UPDATED BumpedThe “Not So Poor” 12 Year Old Voice of SCHIP

    Updated and bumped again: Dan lets loose on the left and rightfully so. Read his entire post, but here is a taste:
    Yes, the Frost children are victims, but not of conservatives. They look more like victims of a couple of mostly spoiled brats who becam…

  135. Lala says:

    A.W.
    I believe Frost is connected to a Soros funded group called Family Matters which advances the cause of socialized medicine

  136. Lala says:

    Lesley said everything was covered by his mother’s insurance.
    I thought private insurance was illegal in Canada.

  137. dumbblonde says:

    Tax Analyst:
    Got some anger issues?
    My point was simple: A single parent without a high-paying job can afford to buy health insurance. I felt it was a priority – just as important as rent and groceries. So why couldn’t the Frost family?
    When my daughter and I were in an auto accident, the health insurance which I purchased paid for the hospital and medical bills. If the Frost family had purchased insurance, their hospital and medical bills would have been paid as well.
    Are there people who sincerely need some help? Sure. But I wasn’t one of them, and neither are the Frosts.

  138. Lala says:

    I lifted the following from realclearpolitics.com
    Government rationing of health care in Canada is why when Karen Jepp was about to give birth to quadruplets last month, she was told that all the neonatal units she could go to in Canada were too crowded. She flew to Montana to have the babies.
    “People line up for care; some of them die. That’s what happens,” Canadian doctor David Gratzer, author of The Cure, told “20/20″. Gratzer thought the Canadian system was great until he started treating patients. “The more time I spent in the Canadian system, the more I came across people waiting. … You want to see your neurologist because of your stress headache? No problem! You just have to wait six months. You want an MRI? No problem! Free as the air! You just gotta wait six months.”

  139. Terry Gain says:

    Dan
    I apologize for foul mouthed Lesley. Very unCanadian of her to call us names. She doesn’t know the first thing about you or me buy that doesn’t prevent her from engaging in such embarrassing behaviour.
    It appears that Lesley is an NDPer- Canada’s socialist party. Perhaps she’s a Liberal. There’s not much difference between the two. The NDP’ers nearly bankrupted Ontario when they were able to form a government in 1990 with 38% of the vote. In five long years they doubled the debt accumulated over the previous 128 years. They take solace in the fantasy that they created a great health care system. In fact the system was better 40 years ago when patients who could afford health care purchased it and those who couldn’t afford health care were treated by doctors out of the goodness out of their hearts at discounted rates or for free.
    My nine brothers and sisters and I, children of a factory worker, enjoyed better health care than my kids, children of a professional. Lesley has her head in the sand about the assembly line nature of today’s medical practice in Canada. Doctors get so little for every patient they see that they must literally operate an assembly line of visits. There are exceptions but with a lot of doctors if you don’t have something obvious or know what you have you may not get the right diagnosis It’s hard to make a diagnosis of a complicated problem in 10 minutes. Some doctors do take extra time but the system is weighted against it.
    I suspect Lesley has an inkling of the weaknesses in this vaunted system -and this would explain her anger and ignorance- but she is afraid to confront one of her cherished beliefs. Canadians think their vaunted health care system makes them superior to Americans.
    (This is however the first time anyone has suggested I leave the country because I don’t believe in the infallibility of socialized medicine. It underlines the hysteria of some of its proponents).
    The essence of socialized, assembly line, medicine is that it is impersonal. The doctor gets a modest fee per visit and he must therefore run through as many patients as he possibly can.

  140. Zuzu says:

    Congratulations.
    You have won the award for the creepiest, sickest post of this entire slimefest.
    Don’t ever take it down. Let it and all the nutball responses be linked as examples of the utter depravity of wingnuttery.
    It’s so bad even the other nutters have disowned you.

  141. Terry Gain says:

    More examination of the Lesley/Terry dispute is in order.
    Lesley doesn’t say how long her mother was in palliative care nor whether her mother left an inheritance. She’s pleased that the system of professionals cared for her mother and good old Lesley didn’t need to take a leave of absence or miss a pay cheque to care for mom.
    You don’t need full time care to administer periodic pain medication. When my mother -in-law was dying from heart failure my wife cared for her in our home over the last 18 months. Her care was supplemented by periodic visits from nurses.
    How much money would Lesley have saved the state if she had cared for her mother?
    Lesley acccuses me of being concerned about money. I am very concerned about money going to people who don’t need it (like Halsey ) when there are thousands in need who get SFA from the state. I would much rather that money which is spent to pay the doctors’ bills of people who would find another way if they had to pay a portion of the bills be spent on people who are really up against it.
    Parents of children with disabilities receive precious little help from the government. They are no less deserving than the Lesleys but they aren’t nearly as numerous and therefore they merit little consideration.

  142. Terry Gain says:

    Lesley said everything was covered by his mother’s insurance.I thought private insurance was illegal in Canada.Posted by: Lala | Tuesday, October 09, 2007 at 10:07 PM
    Lesley was referring to the government “insurance”, which isn’t insurance at all.

  143. Troll Feeder says:

    Oh, for the love of Pete!
    Xanthippa (or whatever), Tax Analyst, Drew, and the rest of you nimrods who think I should be forced to pay for the health insurance of a family with a net worth (based on their reported home appreciation alone) north of $300,000 and who also think that health insurance is impossible to obtain without government assistance, please visit http://www.einsurance.com and get some quotes.
    +1 to those who have pointed out that anyone who does not do all he can to ensure his family had good catastrophic insurance coverage is a BAD PARENT.
    And +1 to the gentleman who explained to the slower of you out there that you have to get the insurance BEFORE you get damaged. Those of you who make arguments based on folks not being able to get insurance after the damage are straight up disingenuous. Or stupid. You certainly don’t argue honestly.

  144. curvedbrain says:

    “It’s so bad even the other nutters have disowned you.”
    Which other “nutters” have disowned Dan’s post? Please cite the ‘multitude’… and be sure to specify which are “nutters” and which are “drooling rightwing whackjobs”.. because every good liberal knows from his hivemindset that there can be no such thing as a sincere, thoughtful, informed conservative

  145. curvedbrain says:

    “You people are pigs. Fuck you and your party. I hope you all rot in hell.”
    I think that’s a fair summation of popular leftist sentiment.. in their own words no less. Unhinged and deranged, yet so.. so..much more

  146. Xanthippas says:

    Xanthippa (or whatever), Tax Analyst, Drew, and the rest of you nimrods who think I should be forced to pay for the health insurance of a family with a net worth (based on their reported home appreciation alone) north of $300,000…
    Welcome to the Republican health care approach, wherein you are required to sell your home to obtain insurance. All hail the ownership society!
    Oh wait, I already said that. This gets repetitive. Please try to pay attention.

  147. seekeronos says:

    Lefties don’t know how to debate.
    They either make declarations from on high, and if they are in a position of power, will beat you into submission if you don’t toe the party line.
    Kind of an interesting parallel to extremist forms of Islam.
    “Off with yer heads, O Republican Kuffars!” say the jihadists at MoveOn.org and all their foamy-mouthed drooling socialist minions.

  148. Xanthippas says:

    Sorry Xanthippas, I’ve been in the health care business in this country for 19 years, and you’re the one who doesn’t know what you’re talking about. Anyone who says the healthcare system in this country is bad, is a blithering idiot. If you can give me examples, in the U.S., where people have to wait 6 months for a coronary bypass graft, or be forced into quitting a bad habit (smoking), before he can get health care, then you’ll have a point. If you can give me examples of people being turned away from emergency rooms who need care (hint – it’s against federal law to do so), then you’ll have a point.
    =========
    Welllll…my mom’s been in the health care industry for near about 20 years, and she’s presently underinsured as a result of my dad’s inability to get decent insurance, even though-incredibly-he works for a health care provider. The irony! I will inform her post-haste that she is a “blithering idiot” for thinking something is slightly wrong with health care in our country, though I suspect that she will also think the same of you…as do I, as you might well imagine. Of course, I could just be making crap up, in which case I expect to find you sitting outside of my mom’s house with a calculator figuring out how much the value of their home has appreciated.

  149. Xanthippas says:

    “Off with yer heads, O Republican Kuffars!” say the jihadists at MoveOn.org and all their foamy-mouthed drooling socialist minions.
    ========
    Indeed, teach us the meaning of “true” debate and rhetoric.

  150. curvedbrain says:

    “Welcome to the Republican health care approach, wherein you are required to sell your home to obtain insurance. All hail the ownership society!”
    Well, if you’ve got $100’s of thousands of dollars in home and business real estate equity and/or other assets or alternatives, I think not just Republicans, but most Americans of both parties would think that these folks need to pursue other options before making the US taxpayer the first resort for paying bills they could otherwise pay for themselves. What a crazy ‘wingnut’ idea, huh?

  151. seekeronos says:

    As for S-CHIP – in its original iteration, it was not a bad ida. But this business with S-CHIP2 was intended by the Democrat Congress (Dhimmi Cong) more to build a (rather effective) billyclub with which to beat the Administration with in what was almost a perfect PR and political move. And it almost worked!
    Really! If only they had dragged out some Katrina victim, some poor black raggamuffin who with his serially-partnered mother with monumentally bad luck with “men” and not necessarily step-paternal sibings… still living in FEMA single-wide.
    As someone else commented… they would have had not only the un-trumpable moppet card, but a full house (or is that a ‘Nawlins royal flush?) “ace” of Race cards as well.
    Nope! They picked the white kids of a rich family that was doing a bang up job of milking the system like good little (monied? what heresy is this??) socialists.
    I mean, only a realy meanie-weanie Pwesident would dare to veto a bill that would only benefit poor starving moppets of reasonably funded businessmen (oops!) who have categorically failed to supply insurance available on the market for his kids (but lo! He spongeth off the government teat, even given his net worth).
    Indeed, the way this S-CHIP2 was meant to fly through Dhimmi Cong, and damned if he did (veto and earn the everlasting censure of the Dhimmi Cong and MoveOn boneheads) and damned if he didn’t (an unconscionable amount of money added to a program that really didn’t need it).
    But once again, the Dhimmicrats outsmarted themselves.

  152. M. Simon says:

    Dan,
    Love the way you pile on!
    What happens when some government junk scientist discovers that eating carrots is bad for you? Carrot rationing.
    Or suppose they decide pot is good for you? You will be forced to consume your daily ration in front of a government agent. To keep health care costs down.
    And I fuckin’ hate pot prohibition.
    We are on the edge of totalitarianism with this stupid government run medicine.

  153. AlphaLiberal says:

    Damn you conservatives are some mean assholes. So many falsehoods, so much arrogance, so much spite.
    Con’s keep shrieking “Dems are hiding behind a kid!” Although Nancy Pelosi went on FoxNews the very next morning, which is basically letting the Republican Party interview you on camera (wish she’d stop doing that). All kinds of Dems have been speaking out on the issue. That’s not hiding, idiots.
    Con’s pretend to be pro-family, but only families that agree with you. Not families who DARE UTTER PUBLIC DISAGREEMENT WITH THE REPUBLICAN LINE. THEY MUST BE DESTROYED.
    Look, you’re stalking this family’s home, interfering with his business, invading their private lives all because his kid was on a radio show, because he exercised his free speech. You want to “make an example” of the Frost family, acting like true thugs and bullies to silence others.
    You’re acting like brownshirts.

  154. AlphaLiberal says:

    And to Dan Riehl, has it occurred to you that Mr Frost is trying to make a go of a business? And for that you are mocking him? Aren’t right-wingers all pro-business person? Or just successful ones?
    There are lots of small business people in this country who don’t have insurance. DAN RIEHL, WHY DO YOU HATE SMALL BUSINESS PEOPLE SO MUCH?
    The stupid! It burns!

  155. curvedbrain says:

    “Not families who DARE UTTER PUBLIC DISAGREEMENT WITH THE REPUBLICAN LINE.THEY MUST BE DESTROYED.”
    Now here we have a classic problem with the truth. Libs say the conservatives are trying to “destroy” the Frost family, while in reality, they only raised legit questions about the Frost’s claims, claims which they chose to push front and center on the public political stage with their children. No ‘destruction’. No ‘attacks’. Just legitimate questions which should have been raised by the MSM. No doubt those like AlphaLib, while demonstrably lying their asses off, prefer to see themselves as noble truth tellers. Whatever floats their boat, I suppose.

  156. curvedbrain says:

    “And to Dan Riehl, has it occurred to you that Mr Frost is trying to make a go of a business?”
    He’s done quite well in real estate investments. Perhaps he should take some of his hundreds of thousands of dollars in equity from those real estate investments and pay his own insurance. Or get a better job given his and his wife’s educational background. Or * shudder * take a second job. Judging from his pic, he seems to have many working years ahead of him.

  157. AlphaLiberal says:

    curvelib, their business partners are being questions, insinuations made against them at their workplace and neighborhood, they’re being called liars in the public sphere, you guys are openly insulting the father for trying to start a business, their home is being stalked, their home address has been published (which the hypocrite Malkin whines about if it happens to a con).
    This is all about silencing people who disagree with Republicans.

  158. curvedbrain says:

    “their home is being stalked”
    Let’s take just one of several false claims you’ve made. Define “stalked”, and support your assertion. I think your response will reveal much about your ‘integrity’

  159. curvedbrain says:

    “their home address has been published”
    Presumably, since you name Malkin, you can direct us to your protests of her address being published? No? How about Jeff Gannon?
    At least Malkin had a plausible reason – pointing to the sizeable real estate values of the Frost’s house and business property from a family pushing for the govt to pay their bills

  160. LOL says:

    I can’t believed you piled on to this. I thought for a few days that you actually wouldn’t, but jeezus! I guess it’s just ’cause you were waiting for your marching orders. You are shameless Dan

  161. LOL says:

    who’s the freaking loser here dan, the turleys with a successful marriage and family in the eyes of god, or you, a man with ghastly record with the opposite sex

  162. LOL says:

    oops i mean the frosts

  163. So let me get this straight. Dan and the gang are mightily upset that a hard-working family that suffered a terrible accident are getting a hand from a pretty well-run government program. That bad luck and possibly some bad choices by these folks (and others like them) would conspire to take, like, a quarter a month out of Dan and company’s pocket. That a kid who owes some degree of his current health to the government program would … be … trotted … out (gasp!) … to humbly suggest that we should keep said program. That some people with a house and a business and (holy crap!) a running vehicle would have difficulty paying the insurance and hospital bills for their children (did I mention two of the children have traumatic brain injuries and are likely uninsurable?) …
    That about the score? When do you guys break out into the bit about “Are there no poorhouses? Are there no workfarms?”

  164. Aaron says:

    Some facts:
    US$ 45,000 per year is slightly under the median income in the USA of US$ 48,000. In other words they are middle class, not in poverty. They should be able to afford their own health insurance or get a job that offers one.
    The poverty threshold for a family with 4 children is US$ 26,000 – they are way above poverty.
    These aren’t poor folks. They should be able to take care of themselves.

  165. Poster child

    In an effort to make Bush and Republicans into villains for vetoing the SCHIP health care bill, Democrats enlisted the help of Baltimore 7th grader Graeme Frost The 12-year-old Baltimore boy, whose family relied on the government-funded insurance progr…

  166. King Troll says:

    “They should be able to afford their own health insurance or get a job that offers one.”
    But they can’t. That should point out the problem to you right there. They tried three times to get health insurance and were turned down. Their ‘substantial real estate assets’ it turns out, are worth, gross, probably a grand total of $300K to $400K. Now, let’s assume they’re like me and they don’t actually *own* their home and business, so their actual divestiture value there is probably more on the order of $100K. And then they wouldn’t have a place to live. Oh, and that’s *if*, and we are talking a might big IF, here, IF that would even pay for the medical bills. Having just gone through my mother-in-laws car accident… guess what… it won’t.
    So, bankrupt and homeless is that path they should take? That’s just stupid.
    BTW, their son goes to private school on scholarship.
    You keep saying “should” and holding up ideology instead of looking at the simple hard reality of their situation.
    The whole nonsense about “get a well paying job or a job with health insurance” is bunk. Sometimes things don’t work out that way, and you have no control over it.
    I am constantly amazed at how right wingers have to tell themselves the same story over and over and over again, regardless of the facts. I believe it’s rooted in fear. You’re so scared that this could happen to you. And it might.
    Sometimes s— happens, and that’s what SCHIP is for.
    Get over yourselves and your false sense of invulnerability and your delusional attitude that we are all in absolute control of our own situation. We’re not, and sometimes we need help.
    I am generous when people need help.
    Are you?
    It doesn’t look like it from where I’m sitting.

  167. Bandit says:

    I wonder why if these people live in Balt they send their kids to private school? Don’t they support public education?

  168. Krista says:

    “Lesley said everything was covered by his mother’s insurance.
    I thought private insurance was illegal in Canada.”
    Lala, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but I’m not surprised. The “private-insurance-is-illegal” meme is absurdly pervasive, particularly amongst Americans who are against government-funded healthcare for all citizens.
    Private insurance is indeed legal in Canada. Basically, each province administers their own healthcare system, which covers acute care services. In other words, if it’s considered to be medically necessary, the government will pay for it. As well, as you all likely know, our government does heavily subsidize prescription drugs.
    Some people will also get private insurance, to cover such things as vision care, physiotherapy, chiropractic, the cost of medical equipment such as walkers, braces, etc., dental care, prostheses and wigs, and private hospital rooms. As well, the private insurance will cover the rest of the cost of prescription drugs — anywhere from 60% to 100% of the cost, depending on one’s plan. The plan can be purchased privately, or if you’re lucky, you have coverage through your employer.
    Any fee for any medical service automatically goes through the government plan first. If eligible, it is paid that way. Any services not covered, or not covered at 100%, can then be put through the patient’s private insurance.
    And NO, people are not turned away from medical care, especially for acute services. That’s an absurd meme as well. Waiting lists tend to be for non-acute services such as joint replacements, plastic surgery, etc.
    Yes, to see a specialist, you do have to be referred by your GP. No, not everybody has a family doctor, due to the doctor shortage. However, even those without a family doctor can still get a referral by visiting a doctor at a walk-in clinic, or if worst comes to worst, the ER. (They can expect a wait, though, as the ER deals with genuine emergencies first.)
    No, our system is not perfect. And yes, there are circumstances where people have had to wait for things like hip replacements and MRIs (to that end, there have been a few private MRI clinics opening up here, where those who have the funds can go pay for the MRI. It’s controversial here, because many people don’t like the idea of people with money getting to jump the queue. I, however, think it is a good idea, because even if Joe Rich gets his MRI before I do, him leaving the line means that I will STILL get my MRI that much earlier.)
    However, when it really comes down to brass tacks, I do feel that our system is much better. I don’t currently have private insurance. (I work for a small charity, and neither I nor my employer can afford private insurance.) However, when I had to go to the Emergency Room last year, for what turned out to be a kidney stone, I did not walk out with any bill. The only thing for which I had to pay was my prescription for painkillers, which came to about $20.
    How much would that ER visit have cost me in the U.S.?

  169. Hank says:

    Brilliant post ! Maybe you can go through their garbage and see whether they eat regular food or the more expensive organic choices.
    It’s amazing to me that a fine journalist like you is gungho to scrutinize this family from Baltimore, yet you don’t bother to look into the missing billions that disappeared in Iraq.
    Keep up the fine work!

  170. upyernoz says:

    jesus christ, i’m astounded my mr. riehl once again. i guess being proven wrong on every point you made isn’t enough to get you to give up. i mean, the fact that they tried repeatedly to get private health insurance and were turned down by three different companies should be enough to settle the matter.
    and the sad fact is that in this country a lot of solidly middle class people cannot afford health insurance. the ranks of the uninsured keep growing and it has crawled up the socio-economic scale far enough to reach people who aren’t destitute. hell, i know a lawyer who can’t get health insurance.
    it blows my mind that you don’t see this entire issue as a major strike against your political position. the more you bring it up, the more reason there is to support S-CHIP expansion. no wonder republican politicians, even they seem to have a better grasp of reality than you do, are backing away from the “kill the frosts” strategy. it’s like you’re trying to discredit yourselves here.
    and, by all means, be my guest…

  171. Rocketeer says:

    Oh, I’m generous when people need help, King Troll. Most of us are. That’s what churches and charities are for. However – and here’s a tip – having goverment dictate your “charitable giving” by forcibly taking your money at the end of the barrel of a gun (taxes) is not the commonly accepted definition of “generosity.”

  172. Bandit says:

    The phony outrage is a beautiful thing! It’s not that they can’t spend their own money – they’d just rather spend yours – typical libs – willing to give you the shirt off someone elses back.

  173. MarL says:

    As a taxpaying American in the bracket that takes the biggest percent income hit (my taxes are almost what the Frost’s make per year), I am FULLY and PROUDLY in support of a portion of my tax dollars going to help out people like the Frosts. It saddens me to see how heartless and selfish and shortsighted our nation has become. How judgmental of others. How nasty people are to one another. This is not the kind of place I want my kids to grow up in, that’s for damn sure.
    What seems to have escaped everyones notice here is how frequently and successfully large corporations and super-wealthy people game the tax system. Make no mistake, these folks are more “on the dole” than you think the Frost’s are, and not for sustenance, but for greed.
    So all of you get a goddamn heart and realize that we are all in this together, us Americans, and stop trying to make war with your fellow citizens.

  174. Bandit says:

    I am FULLY and PROUDLY in support of a portion of my tax dollars going to help out people like the Frosts.
    So why do the rest of us have to support them?
    It saddens me to see how heartless and selfish and shortsighted our nation has become. How judgmental of others. How nasty people are to one another. This is not the kind of place I want my kids to grow up in, that’s for damn sure.
    That’s a joke right? Other people are judgemental!?!?
    What seems to have escaped everyones notice here is how frequently and successfully large corporations and super-wealthy people game the tax system.
    So if someone else is scamming the system that makes it OK for everybody?
    So all of you get a goddamn heart and realize that we are all in this together, us Americans, and stop trying to make war with your fellow citizens.
    Well not really – we’re in it together – but people who are scamming the system aren’t.
    Your moonbat synapses aren’t fully fuctional – you only swore a couple of times in your post and only used a couple of insults.

  175. curvedbrain says:

    “Lala, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but I’m not surprised. The “private-insurance-is-illegal” meme is absurdly pervasive, particularly amongst Americans who are against government-funded healthcare for all citizens.
    Private insurance is indeed legal in Canada.”
    Is it? If private insurance has been legal in Canada, it sure as hell hasn’t been for long, and has plenty of strings attached. From 2005 http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/0001025/39/
    So to be clear, you accuse Americans of pushing “absurdly pervasive” false memes about Canadian private health insurance, when in reality this ‘meme’ is/was firmly rooted in fact.

  176. curvedbrain says:

    “jesus christ, i’m astounded my mr. riehl once again. i guess being proven wrong on every point you made isn’t enough to get you to give up. i mean, the fact that they tried repeatedly to get private health insurance and were turned down by three different companies should be enough to settle the matter.”
    I have no idea if that’s true, but I thought the Frost’s said that they COULD get health insurance, only that it was too expensive.
    And since you lefties have researched these details about the insurance applications, perhaps you could shed a little light on medical treatment provided to the Frosts as part of the auto insurance settlement from the accident. And didn’t the Frosts already get S-CHIP benefits?
    Either way, I want whoever did their kitchen to remodel mine. But I’ll have to save up for such an extravegance. Unless I can get Congress to pay for it.

  177. Krista says:

    Once again, Lala, you have no idea what you are talking about.
    “Canada’s Supreme Court dealt a powerful blow to the state monopoly on health care Thursday, striking down a Quebec ban on private health insurance for services provided under the country’s Medicare system of universal coverage.”
    In other words, in Quebec, it used to be illegal for private health insurers to cover services that were already paid for by the government. It was still legal for services that WEREN’T universally covered, though.
    Either that, or my employment as a medical claims adjustor from 2002 to 2005 was all a strange dream.
    As I said, our system is not perfect. But to say that private insurance is illegal here is just flat-out false.
    I’ve done a bit of digging — am I right in assuming that had I been in the US when I had to go to the emergency room, that my visit, treatment, x-ray and ultrasound would have come up to about $5000?
    If so, thank God I don’t live in your country. I would not have been able to afford that bill.

  178. MarL says:

    Bandit wrote: “So why do the rest of us have to support them?”
    Because the tax system is not like ordering a meal at Burger King.

  179. curvedbrain says:

    “As I said, our system is not perfect. But to say that private insurance is illegal here is just flat-out false”
    Flat out false, you say? From the article I cited, until the 2005 Canada supreme court ruling, private health insurance throughout Canada was illegal. As the article makes clear, that 2005 SC ruling applied only to one provincen Quebecn as all the other Canadian provinces at the time of that ruling did not allow the possibility of private health insurance
    Private health insurance – illegal in Canada.

  180. curvedbrain says:

    From the 2006 Canadian hosted AIDS conference informatino site, a warning to visitors coming to the Canadian conference from other other countries:
    “Some of the medications you take at home may not be available in Canada, so be sure to bring enough to last until you return home”
    http://www.aids2006.org/subpage.aspx?pageId=458
    In other words, a number of the most most modern, effective AIDS treatment drugs are not available here in Canada. So be sure you bring enough to last the entire conference, or otherwise you’ll be out of luck (like Canadian AIDS sufferers who lack these options).

  181. krista says:

    Curvedbrain – you’re interpreting the article differently than I am. However, having worked for a private medical insurance company, I can assure you that private health insurance was not illegal in Canada prior to 2005. It is completely and utterly legal and common for people to have private insurance as a COMPLEMENT to the government insurance. You cannot, however, opt out of the government-funded healthcare. That is likely where the confusion is coming. You cannot REPLACE your government plan with a private plan. The government plan is there for all citizens, you can’t opt out of it, and it is always the first payer for any health service. As I mentioned above however, it is perfectly legal and common for people to obtain private insurance in order to cover services that may not be covered by their government plan.
    What WAS illegal was for private insurers to cover services that were already covered under the government plan. This was so that people weren’t paying premiums for services that were already covered by their taxes, and also to discourage physicians from opting out of the government-funded insurance plans.
    Basically, the whole point of our system is so that NECESSARY medical care is guaranteed for everybody. Were my country to scrap the plan, would I save on taxes? Yes, but probably not all that much, in the long haul. Certainly not enough to be able to afford to purchase a private plan.
    And, if you didn’t already know this, I can certainly tell you this much, having worked on the “inside”. Corporations are looking for profits. Bottom line. That’s all they care about. If they can find a way to deny a claim, they will. (Believe me, we adjustors did not look for reasons to approve a claim — we looked for reasons to deny it.) If a policyholder starts to cost more than they’re paying in premiums, you can bet that the insurance company will find a way to get him off the plan. And if you’ve got a heart condition, God help you if you went to the doctor for shortness of breath prior to your coverage being implemented…they won’t cover anything to do with your heart, because you had a pre-existing condition. The right-wing faith in the free market is laughable. They’re not competing — they’re colluding. And “taking your business elsewhere” isn’t always an option.

  182. curvedbrain says:

    “And, if you didn’t already know this, I can certainly tell you this much, having worked on the “inside”. Corporations are looking for profits. Bottom line. That’s all they care about. If they can find a way to deny a claim, they will.”
    Thanks for that bit of “insight”. Who knew about all this profit business? Insurance companies here in the US – health, auto, life, etc who don’t pay claims get sued, and get a reputation which loses them business. Because they are, as you say, profit driven, they try to keep their reputation by paying legit claims to avoid lawsuits and resulting loss of customers. In Canada, as you say, consumers have no such option. Cutting edge AIDS or diabetes treatments not availabe in Canada? Suck it up.
    Is private auto insurance illegal in Canada too? How about privately owned grocery stores? Because I hear that grocery store owners and auto insurers are looking for *gasp* profits too. You better get busy doing something to rectify those abominations.

  183. Krista says:

    Besides, all of this is distracting from the real point: the Frosts HAD insurance. They had CHIP. The government of Maryland approved them for it. That was their right as a state, was it not? Can we not assume that the state of Maryland would have done a needs assesment on them? So if the state of Maryland decided that the Frosts qualified for CHIP, then why are so many of you saying that that was the wrong decision? Is there something that you know about the Frosts that their own state government does not?
    So, the situation as I see it is this: the Frost family was approved for CHIP coverage by the state of Maryland. The family is very happy to have had this coverage, as their medical bills are quite high. In light of the current debate about S-CHIP, one of the children was asked to make an address, talking about how CHIP was a very good thing for his family. Many people on the right do not approve of S-CHIP. And so, instead of talking about S-CHIP and why it is not a good idea, they instead are investigating the family’s financial situation, EVEN THOUGH they legally qualified for CHIP under the current rules.
    It’s just plain silly. The Frosts were found to be eligible for CHIP. End of story. If you don’t like S-CHIP, that’s your prerogative, and you have every right to decry S-CHIP, CHIP, or even CHIPS for all I care (Erik Estrada’s a big boy, he can take it.) But to fancy yourself investigative journalists, speculating how the big, bad, wily, clever and evil Frosts MUST be pulling the wool over the eyes of the poor, trusting, innocent, naive state? You guys are really barking up the wrong tree, and it’s not going to help your case at all. It just makes you look like jerks.

  184. Tax Analyst says:

    Well, OK…let’s see – 47 million Americans have no health insurance. Many who DO have insurance are strapped financially and have to forego or cut back on other basic needs. Many more still walk the tightrope; covered – as long as they stay at the same company and do not, heaven forbid, try to start their own business (and yes, as one commenter noted, there is a rather generous provision in the Tax Code for a “Self-Employed Health Insurance” deduction – it’s actually an adjustment (reduction) in your AGI (Adjusted Gross Income). The Self-Employed Taxpayer gets to take 100% of premiums paid in the tax year for medical & dental and qualified long-term care insurance for themselves, their spouse and their dependents, up to the amount of their Net Income from that Self-Employment (so if you lose money or make very little net income you are quite limited,and it also does not apply to any month in which your were eligible to participate in an Employer subsidized Health Plan, if say, your spouse had work coverage and it was available to both of you). No charge for the Tax mini-Seminar. Anyway, it boggles my mind that people would reject what would eventually would be a clear-cut and workable system because they begrudge people who don’t fit their personal standard or criteria of being “needy”. I mean, who in the Hell should care, really? Health Care is something pretty much everyone needs at some point or other. Will there be some abuses in a Single-payer system? Uh…sure…aren’t there abuses NOW in the current system? When money is involved there will ALWAYS be someone…some folks, who will try and “game” the system for whatever they can. I know this will shock you all, but why, this even occurs within our always fair, equitable, and easily understood Federal Income Tax system (snark). But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have it – in spite of whatever any “anti-taxer’s” out there might be saying under their breath right now – taxes are part of living in a SOCIETY. There are BENEFITS in being part of such a society. I’ll save the long-winded lecture on THAT for some other time and some other audience. My point? Stop worrying about someone getting an edge or advantage over you and look at the broader picture and then get serious about what type of society you wish to live in. If you really prefer “every man/woman for themself”,or think that “Private Charities” should provide to those who are unable to do so themselves, well, get real. Do you really want to run a “Queen For A Day” type of system – whoever has the saddest, most pathethic tale gets a million one-dollar donations while thousands sit on the sidelines. I’m through, you can kick around ideas and plans to improve what we have now or you can spend your time judging and kicking around those you envy or disagree with or whatever your particular annoyance or resentment dictates. I can’t make you want to make things better, I can ony suggest how little sense it makes to want to snoop and investigate everyone who receives any sort of government benefit.

  185. seekeronos says:

    “— Sometimes s— happens, and that’s what SCHIP is for. —”
    I can reasonably accept that. This is what government assistance programs should do – serve as a limited safety net.
    However, like any other safety net, (my days of dealing with OSHA coming back to haunt me :P ) it has a critical working load. Put too much weight upon it, and it will rip and come apart.
    Plus, the more people who remain inside the safety net, the less it is able to catch some other unfortunate who looses his or her balance.
    The answer is not always to make the net bigger, but to encourage people to get out of the net, get their feet back on the ground, and climbing back up ladder.
    Making the net bigger (by the $135B USD which Bush vetoed) may seem expedient, but given humankind’s proclivity toward taking advantage of a “free ride” at others’ expense… I think it would be better to maintain the existing SCHIP budget, or extend it sparingly to meet the need of the people who need it most… like un-insured or under-insured _working_ single parents… not people who own (or are vested in) their private business.
    In the end, who would (will, if the veto is overturned) pay the $135Bn to float this much bigger safety net? I reckon it won’t come out of any corporate taxes, but out of Joe and Jane Paycheck’s monthly income. Of course, I don’t have a studied answer for it, but given the pattern of who usually winds up paying for “tax and spend” programs, I won’t be thinking about buying that new plasma screen TV or visiting my relatives in Japan as easily.
    By the same token, another commenter said that we’d do as well to kill off or draw down “corporate welfare”. Well said, if you can get the powerful rich to play along, and to instruct their private congresscritters to start cutting back some of the special loopholes and tax shelters that some corporations abuse.
    Again, moderation is in order: if we get to punitive in taxing large business, they’ll simply take the next fast plane to Red China or Bangladesh.
    The better idea, of course, is for government to make policy that favours small business and regional businesses — and tax relief contingent upon and proportional their efforts to keep their employees insured.
    Regional and local businesses have a vested interest in keeping their customers happy – both the external buying customers, and the internal customers – the employees satisfied.
    Multinational corporations have no such loyalty – except to themselves, i.e. the CEOs and their hedge fund managers, and their stockholders (in theory, at least).
    “— I’ve done a bit of digging — am I right in assuming that had I been in the US when I had to go to the emergency room, that my visit, treatment, x-ray and ultrasound would have come up to about $5000? —”
    This depends largely on where you get treated at, I think. I have had kidney stones before – a pain I wouldn’t wish upon an enemy or a dog.
    My ER visit had a $50 co-pay, which included the ultrasound and treatment. In my “statement of benefits” letter I got several weeks later, I think the visit was billed for $1800 (to my insurance). I also pay a premium of about $140/month, with my employer picking up the rest of the tab (about 75%). I have $30 office visit copays, and $10 per prescription – which suits me fine, as (thanks be to God) my family and I are relatively young and in fairly good health.
    As I age and my family’s needs evolve, and our income increases, we can choose other insurance options that may have a greater up-front cost (premiums) but lower limits for copays and office visits.
    In the US, many hospitals also give deep discounts for the uninsured for ER visits, and provide flexible payment plans.
    I won’t pretend that our health care system hasn’t got its issues, but it largely works in the middle. The edges – with S-CHIP for our youngest _citizens_, and a horribly broken Medicare/Social Security for the elderly needs attention.
    What we differ on is how to fix it.

  186. Lala says:

    Krista
    My friend went to the emergency roomn in terrible pain. Within hours her gall bladder was removed. The bill for everything was about $15000.00. She didn’t pay a dime as she didn’t have a job or insurance. She didn’t even apply for Medicaid as it was too much trouble. She is a true socialist.

  187. curvedbrain says:

    “So if the state of Maryland decided that the Frosts qualified for CHIP, then why are so many of you saying that that was the wrong decision? Is there something that you know about the Frosts that their own state government does not?”
    I think there is agreement that truly poor people should be helped. The rub comes with giving govt assistance to people who have $100k – $200K or more in real estate equity (and other assets??), and who, given their education and health (I’m speculating on the parents’ health, but both of them look young and healthy), why isn’t the husband working two jobs or whatever to provide for the family? He certainly wouldn’t be the first, or the last father to work two jobs to support a family. And given his educational and family background, it certainly appears that he chosen to work and live as he does. He, unlike others, has other options. His choice… just don’t force me to pay for his choices.

  188. Krista says:

    “The bill for everything was about $15000.00. She didn’t pay a dime as she didn’t have a job or insurance. She didn’t even apply for Medicaid as it was too much trouble. She is a true socialist.”
    I think there’s something I’m missing here. She didn’t pay a dime? Why not? Did she simply refuse to? If that’s the case, I can’t imagine them just shrugging their shoulders and saying, “Oh well, she won’t pay.”
    There’s something to your story that needs a bit more detail.

  189. Slim Tyranny says:

    God you people are sick

  190. Krista says:

    “The rub comes with giving govt assistance to people who have $100k – $200K or more in real estate equity (and other assets??), and who, given their education and health (I’m speculating on the parents’ health, but both of them look young and healthy), why isn’t the husband working two jobs or whatever to provide for the family? He certainly wouldn’t be the first, or the last father to work two jobs to support a family. And given his educational and family background, it certainly appears that he chosen to work and live as he does. He, unlike others, has other options. His choice… just don’t force me to pay for his choices.”
    He doesn’t have that much equity, though. He’s still paying mortgages on both his home and his work building. How many of us here who “own” homes actually have them all paid off? I saw a picture of the guy’s house. They’re not living in splendor. It’s just a normal-looking home.
    But like I said…they qualified for CHIP. Why are you second-guessing the state’s decision?
    I just find it very disturbing that so many of you expect families to live in substandard housing and work 18-hour days so that their kids can have medical care? What on earth is wrong with you that you think it is acceptable for citizens of your great (and RICH!) country to be forced to make those choices?
    And if you shouldn’t be forced to pay for his choices, then I’m certain that everybody who voted against Bush in 2000 would be justified in demanding their share of their tax money back, right? After all, they didn’t vote for him, and they’ve been forced to pay for his choices and mistakes.

  191. seekeronos says:

    “— You cannot, however, opt out of the government-funded healthcare. That is likely where the confusion is coming. You cannot REPLACE your government plan with a private plan. —”
    This is quite telling, and is typical of the health care/insurance model of Japan and Germany as well. (My wife is Japanese, and I had dual German/US citizenship as a youth).
    Mandatory nationwide government insurance, I’m not sure we are ready for that yet. With our free market system in the USA, we are able to support some of the most advanced applications of medical science available.
    As an intermediate step, I’d support S-CHIP where it gives the greatest power to the many states to set their own policy and offer _supplemental_ levels of insurance. Perhaps, allow the states to set their own budgets, and refund any surpluses at the end of the year into an investment fund to help defray deficit years.
    We Americans are quite fond of having choices, and being able to shop for the best plan(s) that suit our needs.
    In other words, the governmental catchall plan should be an _option_ that is available for the most needy, or for those whose employee insurance options are insufficient.
    But to mandate a centralized health care plan from which we have no legal recourse to opt-out, forces us into yet another set of liberty-destroying shackles, and makes some middle-men who will assuredly take their place in the tax “food chain” of entitlements.
    It only creates more bureaucrcacy, and drives us further into the arms of the nanny-state.
    Thanks, but no thanks.

  192. Bandit says:

    “The Frosts were found to be eligible for CHIP. End of story.”
    Don’t question your masters – I’ll make it simple so you can understand
    Tax dollars are supposed to be allocated based on need – when people who don’t need thenm take them then they are cheating both the taxpayers and the truly needy

  193. Lala says:

    She refused to pay, they tried to collect but she had no money and no assets that they could go after.
    The State has a fund to reimburse doctors and hospitals when patients don’t pay their bills.
    All of us who do pay our bills unknowingly contribute to this fund.

  194. curvedbrain says:

    “they qualified for CHIP. Why are you second-guessing the state’s decision?”
    How dare you question how govt benefits are handed out! Govt benefits going to those who could pay for it themsleves?? Just shut up and take it! /Krista
    Are you seriously complaining about peoples’ right to question these things? I think you are. Seems like quite an authoritarian position to be taking.

  195. Lala says:

    Nationalized Health Care is Broken
    By John Stossel
    Last week I pointed out that Michael Moore, maker of the documentary “Sicko,” portrayed the Cuban health-care system as though it were utopia — until I hit him with some inconvenient facts. So he backed off and said, “Let’s stick to Canada and Britain because I think these are legitimate arguments that are made against the film and against the so-called idea of socialized medicine. And I think you should challenge me on these things.”
    OK, here we go.
    One basic problem with nationalized health care is that it makes medical services seem free. That pushes demand beyond supply. Governments deal with that by limiting what’s available.
    That’s why the British National Health Service recently made the pathetic promise to reduce wait times for hospital care to four months.
    The wait to see dentists is so long that some Brits pull their own teeth. Dental tools: pliers and vodka.
    One hospital tried to save money by not changing bed sheets every day. British papers report that instead of washing them, nurses were encouraged to just turn them over.
    Government rationing of health care in Canada is why when Karen Jepp was about to give birth to quadruplets last month, she was told that all the neonatal units she could go to in Canada were too crowded. She flew to Montana to have the babies.
    “People line up for care; some of them die. That’s what happens,” Canadian doctor David Gratzer, author of The Cure, told “20/20″. Gratzer thought the Canadian system was great until he started treating patients. “The more time I spent in the Canadian system, the more I came across people waiting. … You want to see your neurologist because of your stress headache? No problem! You just have to wait six months. You want an MRI? No problem! Free as the air! You just gotta wait six months.”
    Michael Moore retorts that Canadians live longer than Americans.
    But Canadians’ longer lives are unrelated to heath care. Canadians are less likely to get into accidents or be murdered. Take those factors into account, not to mention obesity, and Americans live longer.
    Most Canadians like their free health care, but Canadian doctors tell us the system is cracking. More than a million Canadians cannot find a regular family doctor. One town holds a lottery. Once a week the town clerk gets a box out of the closet. Everyone who wants to have a family doctor puts his or her name in it. The clerk pulls out one slip to determine the winner. Others in town have to wait.
    It’s driven some Canadians to private for-profit clinics. A new one opens somewhere in Canada almost every week. Although it’s not clear that such private clinics are legal, one is run by the president of the Canadian Medical Association, Dr. Brian Day, because under government care, he says, “We found ourselves in a situation where we were seeing sick patients and weren’t being allowed to treat them. That was something that we couldn’t tolerate.”
    Canadians stuck on waiting lists often pay “medical travel agents” to get to America for treatment. Shirley Healey had a blocked artery that kept her from digesting food. So she hired a middleman to help her get to a hospital in Washington state.
    “The doctor said that I would have only had a very few weeks to live,” Healey said.
    Yet the Canadian government calls her surgery “elective.”
    “The only thing elective about this surgery was I elected to live,” she said.
    Not all Canadian health care is long lines and lack of innovation. We found one place where providers offer easy access to cutting-edge life-saving technology, such as CT scans. And patients rarely wait.
    But they have to bark or meow to get access to this technology. Vet clinics say they can get a dog or a cat in the next day. People have to wait a month.
    Copyright 2007 Creators Syndicate Inc.
    Page Printed from: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/socialized_medicine_is_broken.html

  196. Krista says:

    “Are you seriously complaining about peoples’ right to question these things? I think you are. Seems like quite an authoritarian position to be taking”
    No, I am laughing about the fact that based on a bunch of dubious research done by a Freeper, you all have decided that you’re in a better position to determine the Frosts needs than the State of Maryland was.
    And LaLa, as for your friend…if she had no job and no assets, and a hospital bill of $15K, then I’m curious as to what you think should have been done. Or, conversely, let’s say she was taking home about $1500 a month and owned a modest home. There appear to be people here who would have had your friend sell her house in order to pay her medical bills. If nobody can see how wrong that is, then frankly, I give up on all of you.

  197. Lala says:

    Krista,
    Your question was what would your emergency visit cost you in the U.S.
    It would cost you nothing if you chose not to pay it.
    Hospitals in the U.S. are required by law to treat everyone regardless of their ability to pay.

  198. prozacula says:

    once again dan, riehl stupid.
    oh, and you’re and asshole.

  199. frits says:

    Yeah, Dan. You’re an arrogant, compassionless piece of shit.

  200. Krista says:

    “Krista,
    Your question was what would your emergency visit cost you in the U.S.
    It would cost you nothing if you chose not to pay it.”
    Wow…that’s a great system. So how come everybody isn’t refusing to pay their bills?
    Or is it that people who actually DO have income and assets, unlike your friend, ARE made to pay their bills?

  201. Lala says:

    Krista,
    Do you pay your bills willingly or are you forced to pay your bills?
    How do you make someone pay if they have no money and no assets?

  202. curvedbrain says:

    “No, I am laughing about the fact that based on a bunch of dubious research done by a Freeper, you all have decided that you’re in a better position to determine the Frosts needs than the State of Maryland was”
    First, no one is relying just on research done by “Freepers”, and it’s a strawman for you to suggest otherwise. And what research did you rely upon when you made your definitive statement that the Frosts don’t have $100k – $200k in equity in their real estate property holdings as you stated above?

  203. seekeronos says:

    “—
    And LaLa, as for your friend…if she had no job and no assets, and a hospital bill of $15K, then I’m curious as to what you think should have been done. Or, conversely, let’s say she was taking home about $1500 a month and owned a modest home. There appear to be people here who would have had your friend sell her house in order to pay her medical bills. If nobody can see how wrong that is, then frankly, I give up on all of you.
    —”
    That is much more reasonable than someone who has a $400K house and the _ability_ and access to personal connections so as to be able to pull in six figure income.

  204. waka waka says:

    Wow. You people are truly, TRULY without class. Keep it up. Your moral “values” are just shining through. All the better for the true party of moral values next year. Unbelievable.

  205. waka waka says:

    Oh yeah, why do you people ignore the fact that this family tried to get insurance three times already but were repeatedly rejected because of their children’s pre-existing medical conditions? What else are they supposed to do?

  206. seekeronos says:

    “—
    Do you pay your bills willingly or are you forced to pay your bills?
    How do you make someone pay if they have no money and no assets?
    —”
    In theory, someone with zero income and zero assets would be unable to pay.
    However, in practice, most people do exercise some degree of trade or receive welfare, and likely some portion of that would be collected against the payment of the medical bills.
    That extreme case would seem not to be typical, as most people still have a moral sense of obligation to pay their bills and earn an income.

  207. Krista says:

    From the Baltimore Sun:
    “Folkemer said a family’s assets are not considered in determining eligibility. Halsey Frost purchased the family home for $55,000 in 1990, according to city records, and refinanced in 2005, he says, to make improvements to accommodate the return of Graeme and Gemma from the hospital. The 1936 brick rowhouse, on a side street near Patterson Park, has an assessed value of $263,140.
    Halsey Frost purchased a 1920 warehouse in East Baltimore for $160,000 in 1999, according to city records. It is assessed at $160,500. Frost says he is still paying off the mortgages on both properties.”
    So, if he refinanced in 2005, and they have a family income of $45K, then it’s pretty blatantly obvious that they would not have paid that off in two years.
    Anyway, I’ve wasted more than enough time over here. But like I said, the state of Maryland determined that the Frosts were eligible for SCHIP. You folks think that was the wrong decision, and feel that the Frosts should be made to sell both their home and business, and that the father should be made to get a “real job” that just happens to have great health coverage (that would just happen to cover two kids with severe pre-existing conditions), instead of being an entrepreneur.
    Like I said, I just have to laugh. This family…lower-middle class, happily married, 4 kids, the guy owns his own business, they’re paying down their home and making a life for themselves….isn’t this family almost emblematic of your typical blue-collar, apple-pie-American family, working to make ends meet? I can’t help but think that if they were on YOUR side of the argument, you would have been revering them.

  208. seekeronos says:

    “— Oh yeah, why do you people ignore the fact that this family tried to get insurance three times already but were repeatedly rejected because of their children’s pre-existing medical conditions? What else are they supposed to do? —”
    This is unfortunate – if true. However, that does not render moot the fact that this family is not in imminent danger of becoming insolvent because of medical bills, or the ability to locate an insurer that would take care of his family.
    The graver mistake also lies in that he, having had the ability to have done so — he failed to provide catastrophic insurance coverage _prior_ to their unfortunate accident.

  209. Xanthippas says:

    However, that does not render moot the fact that this family is not in imminent danger of becoming insolvent because of medical bills, or the ability to locate an insurer that would take care of his family.
    ============
    Yes, that’s correct. First they must sale their home and squander their equity on health care expenses. Only THEN will they be in dire straits…but still undeserving of help.

  210. Xanthippas says:

    Well, if you’ve got $100’s of thousands of dollars in home and business real estate equity and/or other assets or alternatives, I think not just Republicans, but most Americans of both parties would think that these folks need to pursue other options before making the US taxpayer the first resort for paying bills they could otherwise pay for themselves. What a crazy ‘wingnut’ idea, huh?
    ========
    You must sell all you own, abandon your business and become a wage slave or destitute, or you are “making the US taxpyer the first resort.”
    But you are correct. That’s no “crazy wingnut” idea. That’s the modern Republican party.

  211. Troll Feeder says:

    King Troll, et al with the comments that these folks were eligible for CHIP, so why are we complaining?
    Granted that they were eligible. He and his wife are adults and should be taking of their basic needs themselves instead of forcing me to carry their burdens. If this means changing jobs or reducing their lifestlye to something more affordable, then so be it. THAT IS WHAT I AND ALL OTHER RESPONSIBLE ADULTS DO.
    Our other complaint have all been mentioned and ignored multiple times above. First, our beef is against the EXPANSION of SCHIP to groups that fully capable of obtaining private insurance, not the continuation of SCHIP as an insurer of last resort.
    Second, stop telling us that the Frosts have trouble obtaining private coverage for the now pre-existing conditions. WE KNOW THAT. Our point is that a responsible parent would have been paying for his own coverage BEFORE the accident occurred.

  212. Troll Feeder says:

    Xanthippas, they could take out a second mortgage. They could get second jobs. They could get better paying first jobs. This is not wage slavery, you dishonest hack; it is acceptance of the fact that food costs money.
    They could have PLANNED BETTER.
    They could stand on their own feet instead of making me hold them up.
    Responsible people used to do it all the time.

  213. Tax Analyst says:

    “The graver mistake also lies in that he, having had the ability to have done so — he failed to provide catastrophic insurance coverage _prior_ to their unfortunate accident.”
    Clearly a crime…and what punishment shall we exact upon the Frost’s for this grave omission? Well, how about a Lifetime of Impoverishment and stunted futures for all their children? There, I think that’s appropriate…all that’s left is the mere formality of Dan or Ms. Malkin signing the sentencing declaration…all done…now we can go on about the business of obsessively measuring and protecting “what’s mine” and making sure that none of that ends up being part of “what’s your’s”.

  214. Bandit says:

    “Responsible people used to do it all the time.”
    Why bother when the gov’t is going to hand you money? Personal responsibility is an unknown concept to the Dems because it doesn’t help create dependency.

  215. Bandit says:

    “isn’t this family almost emblematic of your typical blue-collar, apple-pie-American family, working to make ends meet? ”
    Mooching off taxpayers and stealing from the indigent – I don’t think so.

  216. Fred Beloit says:

    Ah, the light of sweet reason shines in the North, sparkling and beautiful:
    “Just quit whining and bitching about a system that for the most part works well when it’s funded. Harper and Chretien before him wanted to kill it, and God knows they are trying to turn it into a private care system like the US. Over my dead body will they get away with it.
    I would say to asshole Canadians like yourself who operate on the “me” principle to just get out of this country altogether. You’re not needed or wanted. You contribute nothing. Just get the hell out.”

  217. Fred Beloit says:

    Once you can get your fellow citizens to pay your way for you, why would you ever want to have to pay your own way? The lure of socialism. Note the fury over any hint of a recall.

  218. waka waka says:

    I just love this. The real compassionate conservatives are finally showing their true colors. You guys are all obviously devout Christians too. Man, just keep arguing that the father should have “planned better,” that it’s all their fault insurance companies won’t cover them, that the parents should just go out and get “real jobs” so you don’t have to “pay their bills.”
    Yeah, just keep talking like this and the Democrats might pick up enough seats in the Senate to override the record number of filibusters the Republicans have been making. You know, it’s funny. Last year you guys did nothing but whine about not getting “an up or down vote,” now you’re seeing things a little differently. Last year you guys were about to use the nuclear option. Notice how the Democrats haven’t? Looks like one party is principled enough to stick to its positions, even when they aren’t politically expedient. And then there’s you craven, power-mad hypocrites. LOL!

  219. waka waka says:

    And the corporate welfare? Where’s the pissing and moaning about that? You guys would rather ExxonMobil get a billion-dollar tax break than a couple of kids go to the doctor. Now that’s class!

  220. Korla Pundit says:

    It has nothing to do with compassion, moonbats. It has to do with being lied to by party hacks who exploit children to give them a mask of “moral authority.”
    It’s not the little girl we are attacking, but rather the fatcat commie cowards hiding behind the little girl.

  221. Korla Pundit says:

    Oh, and the look on Mom’s face… I could have told you she was a Clintonista from down the block. So earnest-looking. So willing to prostitute her children for politics.

  222. Bandit says:

    “The real compassionate conservatives are finally showing their true colors.”
    Because nothing says compassion like handing out money meant for poor people to the middle class

  223. SPK says:

    This one totally backfired, wingnuts, and it gets funnier each day watching the sorry sack of shits ala Rheil and Michelle “I wish I were white” Malananagagnag backpedddle.
    Keep alienating the middle, wingnuts, it will do you a world of good in 08

  224. Korla Pundit says:

    >Michelle “I wish I were white” Malananagagnag
    Ah, the face of communist bigotry.

  225. curvedbrain says:

    “and it gets funnier each day watching the sorry sack of shits ala Rheil and Michelle “I wish I were white” Malananagagnag”
    And an extra dose of racist bile to go with the rest of your hatred. How typical. Welcome progressives!

  226. Bandit says:

    You can tell the really reasonable progressives – by the name calling and racism

  227. Slim Tyranny says:

    There are so many terrible arguments being made by the right wingers on this site. Beyond giving any creedence to the stupid “Citizen journalists” at free republic (and the term “Citizen journalists” should be changed to “Morons with google”) and being PROVEN WRONG on the facts, you continue to attack this family.
    “Prostituting her children for politics”? This program saved her family, got great services for her children and prevented a descent into poverty for her, her husband and their four children. You are sick.
    “Because nothing says compassion like handing out money meant for poor people to the middle class” — you really think this program wasn’t compassionate for this family? They would have become impoverished without this program! Their brain-damaged children would not have received the medical attention and special programs needed. THIS WAS COMPASSION.
    For all those willing to throw down this family because of your misguided, fictional beliefs that the parents did not deserve the benefits of this program, I would love a logical, compassionate, moral argument that then concludes that the children should be punished for the supposed sins of the parents.
    Seriously, you people are sick.
    p.s., hey SPK, that racist bullshit has no place on either side, and you hurt your own cause by saying something so stupidly ignorant and bigoted.
    p.p.s., hey right wingers, notice how I condemned someone arguing from my side about the disgusting level of their argument? You should try the same once in a while, just to see how it feels to do what is right and not what is politically advantageous

  228. waka waka says:

    We’re watching the slow but steady implosion of the GOP. Where’s my popcorn?

  229. curvedbrain says:

    “and being PROVEN WRONG on the facts”
    What facts specifically, were the “morons with google” proven wrong? I mean, we don’t know for sure how much equity the Frosts have in their real estate, but given what the papers have published so far, $100k – $200k or more in equity is not an unreasonable estimate. And why isn’t Mr. Frost working two jobs, or a different job? There may be good reasons for this (does he have health problems?), but when you come looking to taxpayers for assistance, it’s entirely fair to ask these questions.
    “p.p.s., hey right wingers, notice how I condemned someone arguing from my side about the disgusting level of their argument? You should try the same once in a while”
    Hey, roger that. Next time I read one of my fellow wingnuts spewing hateful racist bile like your side on this thread, I promise you I’ll condemn it. How’s that for fair and balanced?

  230. Captain Freedom says:

    God Bless You, Dan, for having the courage and strength of character to attack this alleged 12-year old menace and his so-called “family”. I especially like the way you take down Grandpa for not selling all his belongings. Those stupid liberals. They never thought they would have to reckon with the likes of you and Ms Malkin. That’ll show em.

  231. waka waka says:

    What facts specifically, were the “morons with google” proven wrong? I mean, we don’t know for sure how much equity the Frosts have in their real estate, but given what the papers have published so far, $100k – $200k or more in equity is not an unreasonable estimate. And why isn’t Mr. Frost working two jobs, or a different job? There may be good reasons for this (does he have health problems?), but when you come looking to taxpayers for assistance, it’s entirely fair to ask these questions.
    Yeah, sell his house and his business, put his kids up in a trailer and work two jobs. Will he be poor enough for you jackals then? You seem to miss one of main objectives of the program: To keep kids OUT OF POVERTY!
    And how come you guys aren’t attacking Orrin Hatch and all those other “RINOs”? You’re conveniently forgetting this is a bipartisan bill.

  232. Slim Tyranny says:

    “and being PROVEN WRONG on the facts”
    What facts specifically, were the “morons with google” proven wrong?
    ——————–
    Really? I need to state the obvious? How about the allegation that each of the two children in question went to private school for $20k a year? And that, since the family claimed $45k a year in income, that meant some sort of fraud was involved?
    Guess what? The family doesn’t spend $40k a year on private school. They spend $500 total for both. The son is on a scholarship, paying $500 a year, and the daughter goes on full subsidy because she needs special classes for her BRAIN INJURIES!
    How about the ridiculous allegation about granite countertops? The horror! Oh wait, the countertops are concrete, so even this pointless little snipe was wrong.
    How about the allegation, based on numbers pulled from google’s ass, that the house is worth half a million dollars? Oops, the house is worth about $260k according to public records and was bought a long time ago, when the neighborhood was unsafe, for $55k.
    Talk about being proven wrong!
    This is what happens when people think that investigative journalism means google searches with an ax to grind.

  233. Troll Feeder says:

    Tax analyst 2007-10-10 14:30 “Clearly a crime…and what punishment shall we exact upon the Frost’s for this grave omission? Well, how about a Lifetime of Impoverishment and stunted futures for all their children? There, I think that’s appropriate…all that’s left is the mere formality of Dan or Ms. Malkin signing the sentencing declaration”
    Tax Analyst, they sentenced themselves to this. Dan, Ms. Malkin, and I had nothing to do with it.
    You and your ilk, however, want to take from us the resources that we have sacrificed for in anticipation our own families’ rainy days. You want to steal from the responsible in order to erase the consequences of the unwise choices of the capable but irresponsible.

  234. curvedbrain says:

    “How about the allegation that each of the two children in question went to private school for $20k a year?”
    But the children are going to schools where the tuition cost is $20k a year. The ‘morons’ were right. That the children received full tuition scholarship (who pays the scholarship, btw?) doesn’t change their claim one bit.
    And no granite countertops? Well, that changes everything, doesn’t it? It’s difficult to have a discussion when you aren’t putting good faith arguments. And you’ve got to admit from the photo, the Frosts’ kitchen looks beautiful, granite or no.
    “How about the allegation, based on numbers pulled from google’s ass, that the house is worth half a million dollars? Oops, the house is worth about $260k according to public records and was bought a long time ago, when the neighborhood was unsafe, for $55k.”
    Well, Michelle Malkin got over there right quick and ended that rumor, didn’t she? The house is listed on the tax rolls at $280k (it may or may not be worth more on the open market), and bought for $55k sixteen years ago from what you say, and from what I’ve read too. That adds up to a sizeable amount of equity even with a 2nd mortgage (if there is one), especially for a young couple asking less well off taxpayers to foot their bills. And then there’s the business property bought for $160k back in 1999. How much equity there? Not what most people have in mind as a typical family that’s just “barely scraping by”. And why was business property purchased back then but not health insurance for the kids? A fair question for those asking taxpayers to pay their bills.

  235. Xanthippas says:

    Responsible people used to do it all the time.
    =========
    Yes, back in the glory days before FDR ruined everyone’s work ethics and people had the good grace to just die of whatever disease or injury they had.

  236. Slim Tyranny says:

    “How about the allegation that each of the two children in question went to private school for $20k a year?”
    But the children are going to schools where the tuition cost is $20k a year. The ‘morons’ were right. That the children received full tuition scholarship (who pays the scholarship, btw?) doesn’t change their claim one bit.
    And no granite countertops? Well, that changes everything, doesn’t it? It’s difficult to have a discussion when you aren’t putting good faith arguments. And you’ve got to admit from the photo, the Frosts’ kitchen looks beautiful, granite or no.
    “How about the allegation, based on numbers pulled from google’s ass, that the house is worth half a million dollars? Oops, the house is worth about $260k according to public records and was bought a long time ago, when the neighborhood was unsafe, for $55k.”
    Well, Michelle Malkin got over there right quick and ended that rumor, didn’t she? The house is listed on the tax rolls at $280k (it may or may not be worth more on the open market), and bought for $55k sixteen years ago from what you say, and from what I’ve read too. That adds up to a sizeable amount of equity even with a 2nd mortgage (if there is one), especially for a young couple asking less well off taxpayers to foot their bills. And then there’s the business property bought for $160k back in 1999. How much equity there? Not what most people have in mind as a typical family that’s just “barely scraping by”. And why was business property purchased back then but not health insurance for the kids? A fair question for those asking taxpayers to pay their bills.
    ——————–
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA MY god you’re defending them!!! Insane!
    Yes, in fact, it DOES change their argument when it is discovered that the family does NOT pay $40k a year in private school tuition, since the morons’ allegation was that they DID pay $40k a year in private school tuition! In fact, I’d say it that fact is pretty much the most important piece of info available on this point. The private school BS was brought up to (i) point out they were paying for a luxury and (ii) accuse them of fraud given the $40k school/$45k income discrepancy. The morons were, of course, wrong.
    And glad to see you can admit they were wrong about the granite countertops. They brought the ridiculous item, of course, to further the lameass argument that this was an affluent family illegitimately (even illegally) living off the government’s dime. But your counterargument of the countertops looking beautiful is pretty compelling.
    “Morons with google” specifically refers to the so-called “Citizen journalists”, the morons who made the half-a-mil claim. The NYTimes found the info, not Malkin and her driving by the house routine.

  237. Troll Feeder says:

    waka waka 2007-10-10 17:17:
    “Yeah, sell his house and his business, put his kids up in a trailer and work two jobs. Will he be poor enough for you jackals then? You seem to miss one of main objectives of the program: To keep kids OUT OF POVERTY!”
    Keeping his kids out of poverty is his job, not mine. My job is to keep my kids out of poverty.
    He could have kept his kids out of poverty without siphoning off my children’s resources by paying for his own health insurance back when it could have made a difference. Instead, he chose to keep his fun but moderately low paying job and the couple of hundred dollars per month that a catastrophic insurance policy would have cost.
    How many different times and in how many different ways do we have to reiterate this? The “adult” Frosts were capable of providing for themselves. Those of us who do provide for ourselves resent them for mooching and are disgusted by those of you who lambast us for expecting the Frosts to live up to their own responsibilities.

  238. Slim Tyranny says:

    Troll Feeder, would you like to address the issue of the Frost children’s culpability in all this? You’ve condemned the adults, and keep reiterating the point that the “adult Frosts were capable of providing for themselves,” but given that the CHIP program provided for the CHILDREN, maybe that could be something you address.
    And I provide for myself, and almost certainly make more than you and pay more in taxes, so get off your high horse of righteous indignation about paying taxes for programs that keep children out of poverty. Boo fucking hoo for you.

  239. M says:

    For whatever it’s worth, I have been denied coverage by health insurers because of a past medical condition, and if one of them deems you too costly to take a chance on insuring, the rest seem to follow suit. They even have the question on the application-have you been denied coverage by others? So I can believe the Frost family has had a very difficult time in obtaining private insurance.
    This doesn’t seem right to me, it will never seem right to me, and it’s why I wholeheartedly support programs like S-Chip.
    I don’t understand why so many think getting a second job should be a perfectly standard way of affording health care. I believe people should take responsibility for themselves, but I don’t see health care as a privilege-it should be a right.
    I’ve had the second job too and just found it so draining to be at work all the time. I think it’s sad that we Americans live in a society where it really is all about the money…

  240. Troll Feeder says:

    Slim Tyranny 2007-10-10 18:06:
    “Troll Feeder, would you like to address the issue of the Frost children’s culpability in all this? You’ve condemned the adults, and keep reiterating the point that the “adult Frosts were capable of providing for themselves,” but given that the CHIP program provided for the CHILDREN, maybe that could be something you address.”
    Wow. I’m so sorry. It is obviously contextually challenging to understand that “themselves” refers to their family, including their children.
    So, as a public service for you and all your challenged buddies, “the ‘adult’ Frosts were capable of providing for their family.” The children are not culpable, the parents are. I have nowhere so much as implied otherwise.
    Does that help?
    Does that address the problem of the children? That two capable parents should take care of their own children’s needs without raiding my poor, thin, whiny wallet?

  241. waka waka says:

    I just had to be the first to share this with everyone.
    http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/10/guess-the-autho.html
    Lower than low is that raving lunatic Michelle “Internment Camp” Malkin. I think she’s about to become the new Ann Coulter!

  242. OhioBob says:

    “Tonight On FOX: When Doughy White Right Wingers Attack (injured children)!!!”
    You could string together every right wing comment not only on this blog but across the entire right wing blogosphere on the Frosts and the entire mass wouldn’t come within one hundred miles of coherence.
    The other thing that fascinates me about this is that virtually every damn pundit on the subject barely has a clue of what it’s like to have a family. Michelle Malkin isn’t just a shrill moron, she has no kids (but has whined about how much insurance would cost for her and her hubby alone). Limbaugh has considerably more ex wives than children.

  243. Jack says:

    I’m interested in becoming a doctor but I’m wondering about a few things.
    How will doctors’ salaries be detemined if “universal health care” comes to pass?
    Will all doctors make the same amount? Will they be paid by how many patients they see each day?
    Will heart surgeons be paid by the hour or by the operation? How much do you think they’ll make?
    Will doctors work a 40 hour week?
    Will people be assigned to the nearest doctor in their neighborhood, or will they be able to choose?
    How many patients will each doctor have to take?

  244. curvedbrain says:

    “The other thing that fascinates me about this is that virtually every damn pundit on the subject barely has a clue of what it’s like to have a family. Michelle Malkin isn’t just a shrill moron, she has no kids”
    Michelle Malkin has two children. Who told you to think that she has no children?

  245. Charlie says:

    Curvedbrain
    You made a mistake in your post – liberals don’t think, they feel – don’tchaknow

  246. OhioBob says:

    “I’m interested in becoming a doctor but I’m wondering about a few things.
    How will doctors’ salaries be detemined if “universal health care” comes to pass?”
    Ask a Canadian, British, French, Dutch, Spanish, Scandanavian, German, Italian, etc, etc, etc, doctor. This is the only place in the civilized world where they do medical care bass ackwards with regards to cost.
    On the other hand, if your sole motivation with becoming a doctor is that people have to pay what you charge or they’ll die, there are other careers with the same sort of dynamic. Blackwater’s hiring, I hear.

  247. OhioBob says:

    “You made a mistake in your post – liberals don’t think, they feel – don’tchaknow”
    Let me know when you achieve thought, OK?

  248. Jack says:

    Well, OhioBob, that was a snotty answer to a legitimate question. Not feeling too good today?

  249. OhioBob says:

    “that was a snotty answer to a legitimate question”
    To what are you referring? Is it my answer to the fellow who was asking what doctors could charge?
    How on earth was my answer “snotty”? It was straightforward, to the point, and quite accurate. My answer was every bit as legitimate as the question.
    That the answer displeased you has zero to do with how I am feeling today, which is just fine, thank you.

  250. seekeronos says:

    “— based on numbers pulled from google’s ass —”
    Sounds painful.
    As for foreign doctors, especially Brits and Canadian… from what I keep hearing and reading, there is a chronic shortage of doctors under “universally socialist health care” systems.
    Whether this is due to horrific levels of demand, chronic bureaucratic mismanagement (i.e. tired underpaid gubmint workers not paid enough to rally care), or chronic underpayment of medical staff who’ve paid a pound of their own flesh in student loans and then liability and malpractice insurance… I dunno, but any of those might discourage a talented medical student from completing his track and go do something more profitable, like manage hedge funds.

  251. Kev says:

    “We should not be rewarding carelessness and selfishness and there are always going to be cases of carelessness (even with the government involved).”
    I agree with the original sentence, but change “even” to “especially” and I think it will be even more accurate.

  252. OhioBob says:

    “As for foreign doctors, especially Brits and Canadian… from what I keep hearing and reading, there is a chronic shortage of doctors under “universally socialist health care” systems.”
    If you can post some info in that regard, I’d love to see it.
    On the other hand, I work with a Canadian citizen with a green card. He has a wife and two kids. He’s a staunch conservative from Alberta.
    The primary thing that prevents him from becoming a full citizen is that he’d have to give up Canadian health care. When anybody in his family has anything more serious than the flu, he runs back for care. He likes most of the conservative talking points he hears on talk radio except for the ranting about the evils of “socialized” medicine. He thinks they’re crazy on that.

  253. Maritza says:

    Most Canadians like their free health care, but Canadian doctors tell us the system is cracking. More than a million Canadians cannot find a regular family doctor. One town holds a lottery. Once a week the town clerk gets a box out of the closet. Everyone who wants to have a family doctor puts his or her name in it. The clerk pulls out one slip to determine the winner. Others in town have to wait.
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/printpage/?url=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/socialized_medicine_is_broken.html

  254. Maritza says:

    Early efforts by Western democracies to restrict freedom of contract were rationalized on the ground that such restrictions were necessary to prevent the suffering of ordinary citizens. People who oppose the freedom to opt out of state-run health insurance schemes turn that rationale on its head: they oppose freedom of contract even when it is necessary to prevent the suffering of ordinary citizens. A recent ruling by the Canadian Supreme Court has helped to restore that freedom and the right of patients to make their own medical decisions.
    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6378

  255. Maritza says:

    On Monday and Tuesday this week people requiring emergency care arrived by ambulance only to find themselves left in the ambulance to wait for room to be made available in the emergency hallways. Yes the hallways and not the emergency room.
    KGH has faced situations in the last year where people requiring care within 15 minutes, usually heart involved cases have not been seen for as long as 30 or more minutes. As most of us know in the case of heart or stroke related emergencies the need for emergency treatment is vital. The sooner they are seen the less severe the consequences of a heart attack or stroke will be.
    Our hospital, our community, our seniors are being let down by the Gordon Campbell government big time and it appears someone will die as the the Liberals practice their version of inventory control. That is what happens when your priority is cost cutting and you ignore the fact you are dealing with people, many of them seniors.
    http://politicsinbc.blogspot.com/2006/03/code-purple.html

  256. Maritza says:

    Patients who need surgical procedures covered by the Canada Health Act may be out of luck however, unless they like waiting in line – or enlist the services of Rick Baker’s Timely Medical Alternatives, a Vancouver-based firm that specializes in negotiating surgical rates and taking waiting and suffering Canadians across the border to the U.S. to get timely medical care. (Viewers of our film Dead Meat may remember that Rick Baker is briefly profiled there).
    http://onthefencefilms.com/blog/index.php?m=200511

  257. Jules Siegel says:

    Well, I read every post, and all the points seem to be covered except the kitchen. The father is a carpenter. He probably made the kitchen himself. Did a beautiful job, too. How does that get to be evidence that his kids did not deserve the benefits of a government program for which they were fully qualified?
    Now what I’d like to read is an explanation of why “farmers” living in Manhattan — among the world’s most expensive residential and business real estate — are getting millions of dollars in government subsidies. I see figures mentioned of subsidies to farmers with annual adjusted family incomes ranging from $200,000 to $1 million. Apparently, some misguided politicians want to set more stringent limits. It doesn’t appear that they will succeed. Maybe I’m getting something wrong. I’m open to correction. Explain it to me.
    Even if you could clear it up for me, I could do a little research and easily turn up many other examples of wealthy individuals — some of them fabulously wealthy — and multi-billion-dollar corporations receiving massive government subsidies. Somehow I don’t see a lot of that being questioned in supposedly conservative forums.
    Why not? Why are the rich entitled to government welfare, but working class people are required to liquidate any assets they might have in order to pay outrageously inflated medical bills because they can’t afford or cannot obtain health insurance?
    I have a well-fixed retired friend whose wife’s health insurance was arbitrarily canceled after she developed breast cancer. Supposedly it was pre-existing condition and not covered. They have exhausted all their legal and administrative options. The decision cannot be reversed. Now no company will take her for less than $2,000 a month with a large deductible clause. If she gets sick again, they will be wiped out.
    Here’s a guy who worked all his life as an artist for a major Hollywood entertainment corporation. He was directly responsible for creating joyful experiences that continue to give people happiness year after year. He saved, invested wisely, and wound up with a decent pension. When he retired he sold his old house and moved to a less expensive, quieter, smog-free area and bought a nice house using the proceeds from the old house as a down payment. Now he can’t afford $2,000 a month because all his planning was based on the limited income that his pension provides. That’s fixed. He can’t do anything about it.
    All he can do is pray. I hope it works. And I hope the people here who are writing all kinds of callous opinions and outright lies about what others should do will remember their own advice and accept your fates quietly and with dignity when the ax falls on them.
    Most of all, I wonder how many of you will reject government assistance if it should become available in your time of need. Or will you eagerly plunge your snouts in the trough while continuing to denounce the soft-headed liberals who saved your lives? It’s not like any of you are turning down your Social Security payments, as far as I can tell, even as you wail about the evils of socialism.
    Well, don’t worry about that. The Frosts are your enemy. Go after them with all you’ve got. But if you succeed — and the soft-headed liberals fail — you better be prepared to suck it up when it’s your turn in the barrel.
    Have a nice day, Internet viewers. While you still can.

  258. Maritza says:

    Millionaires in Congress:
    Barbara Boxer
    Nancy Pelosi
    Hillary Clinton
    Ted Kennedy
    John Edwards
    John Kerry
    Diane Feinstein
    John Rockefeller
    Jane Harmon
    They make the laws that benefit themselves and their friends.

  259. curvedbrain says:

    “It’s not like any of you are turning down your Social Security payments, as far as I can tell, even as you wail about the evils of socialism.”
    Given that most people pay for their own social security through payroll with the govt payback assuming some incredibly low interest rate around 1% APY, how in any way, shape, or form do you leftist dopes assume that accepting social security payments, which were overpayed for in the first place through payroll.. how do you come to the whacked out conclusion that accepting those payments amount to endorsement of socialism? Please explain that one..as I want to understand how your “thought” process functions.

  260. curvedbrain says:

    Now here is another problem. Leftist “Ohiobob” falsely claimed that Michelle Malkin has no children, and therefore she could not identify with ‘real’ families. After having it pointed out to him that MMalkin in fact has two children, he mindlessly ignores this previous lie and trods along as if nothing has changed, continuing to post as if his previous points had not been ripped to shreds. OhioBob is a textbook example of a leftist. No doubt he sees himself as a normal human being.

  261. Maritza says:

    OhioBob also wanted to know about the shortage of doctors in Canada. I provided some of the information but he hasn’t acknowledged it.

  262. Troll Feeder says:

    Jules Siegel 2007-10-10 21:51:
    Your friend is old and retired and reportedly made plans for his family’s health care that did not work out due to (by your report) the decision of the insurance company.
    This is not at all the same as two young people having four kids and making no self-funded plans for their family’s health care.
    The only connection I see between the two is your implied demand that I pony up the funds to cover both of their misfortunes.
    This is not callous. This is me valuing the well-being of my family ahead the well-being of yours.
    Further, I, too, hope that I would remember my principles and retain enough dignity to not claim that everyone in the country owes me a hand out should misfortune frown my way. I hope that while I might ask for help, that I at least would not demand it.

  263. seekeronos says:

    “— Now what I’d like to read is an explanation of why “farmers” living in Manhattan — among the world’s most expensive residential and business real estate — are getting millions of dollars in government subsidies. I see figures mentioned of subsidies to farmers with annual adjusted family incomes ranging from $200,000 to $1 million. Apparently, some misguided politicians want to set more stringent limits. It doesn’t appear that they will succeed. Maybe I’m getting something wrong. I’m open to correction. Explain it to me. —”
    I agree that this is as wrong as any other “welfare” that supports people with means to support themselves lavishly.
    I’d much rather see regional businesses and small local businesses be given a nudge and a break, and the multinational corporations strapped into the chair of tax scrutiny.
    And there is other bits of silliness involving famers subsidized for NOT growing crops. I’d like to know more about that as well.

  264. zuzu says:

    Xanthippas wrote:Yes, that’s correct. First they must sale their home and squander their equity on health care expenses. Only THEN will they be in dire straits…but still undeserving of help.
    —————————————————————-
    Of course then the taxpayers will have to pay 100% of the medical bills via medicaid. Much more cost-effective than helping to provide for private insurance coverage.
    Oh, it’s not?
    Well, I guess it’s just more moral in the wingnuts’ eyes.

  265. VOR says:

    Dan,
    How classy was that of Malkin to publish information that identified how to pick out their house? Now Rick Moran is crying that someone posted info on Malkin’s personal address. Guess all tactics are okay if you don’t offend the queen, right?

  266. Tina says:

    Wasn’t it President George Bush who said something like there being two types of people in the world “the have’s and the have more’s”

  267. curvedbrain says:

    “How classy was that of Malkin to publish information that identified how to pick out their house? Now Rick Moran is crying that someone posted info on Malkin’s personal address”
    Malkin published the address so as to address speculation on the Frosts’ real estate holdings. On the other hand, Malkin’s address was posted solely to provoke hateful liberals to harass her.

  268. curvedbrain says:

    “Wasn’t it President George Bush who said something like there being two types of people in the world “the have’s and the have more’s””
    I think you’re confusing George Bush with John Edwards’ “other America”. More on Edwards ‘other America’ here http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/apr2007/edwa-a14.shtml

  269. Lala says:

    http://www.zabasearch.com will find almost anyone’s address

  270. dan says:

    You rightwingers are disgusting. Staking out a 12 year old’s house to dig up dirt on him? Shame on you. Questioning their scholarships to private schools (one of the kids needs the special schooling precisely because or her injuries)? Sickening. Dragging kids that are lucky to be alive through the muck so you can get your jollies. Indefensible….
    You righties are classless lowlifes. What should I expect from people who mock people with Parkinson’s (Michael J Fox) and who have been horribly injured in Vietnam (Max Cleland). What a bunch of tough guys you all are for picking on these people. Were there no kindergartners available for you to rip apart you cowards?
    How do you people sleep at night? Let me guess…you spank off to a Dick Cheney poster and roll over…

  271. Budahmon says:

    Dan,
    Not one person here as attacked the kids, no one has dragged them through the mud…but the parents are very well fair game. Both parents have college degrees, both are only part time workers…..Now if I had four kids I sure as hell wouldn’t be working part time to support them. I would find a full time job…but not these parents..they would rather suck off the taxpayers teat….In Maryland, PIP auto insurance is voluntary. Instead of paying the PIP they used it for other things..and left the taxpayers paying the bill…..Why didn’t they pay the PIP? Why didn’t they pay for the health insurance before the accident? What if the mother had hurt your kid in an auto accident? Would you be arguing that these two so called adults were responsible? I don’t think so… This is what the left has descended to in this country…defending 30 year old children who don’t want to take time out of their busy day to actually work for a living and pay their bills. BTW, all four kids are in private school!!!

  272. Korla Pundit says:

    Here’s why the left is so over-defensive about these frauds (the parents). Because in a nutshell (heh), this is a figure or a type of the whole lot of them: Overprivileged pricks who work the system to get freebies from somebody else’s wallet, all the while putting up a facade of somebody unassailable like sick children, or starving third-worlders, or oppressed immigrants, or some racial crap. But it’s mainly about milking the system for their own comfy lifestyle. And all the while, getting on a high horse about how they care about “the people.” Too bad they treat actual “people” (without the “the”) like crap.

  273. Ginger says:

    I think you need to trace your information to a credible source. If you can, then you have an argument. Critical thinking is based on sound evidence. And finally, I hope your family is never put in the position to deal with the health care costs of a horrible car acccident. And if they are, does that mean that not one red cent of your money can go towards anything but the inflated bill you are left with?

  274. dan says:

    BTW, all four kids are in private school!!!
    Posted by: Budahmon
    BTW, all four kids are on scholarship. One of which goes to special school due to the brain injury she suffered during the accident. The family makes about $45-50k a year to support a family of six. They bought their house for $55k in 1990 when it was located in a run-down neighborhood which has since improved (but is still not exactly Beverly Hills). These people don’t sound like someone taking advantage of a federal program. They seem like average Americans struggling to get by. Is that your side’s enemy? Average americans?
    Keep trying to defend the indefensible. The uninsured kids of America think you’re a douchebag for doing so.
    Isn’t there a pre-schooler out there you could be slandering you sick bastards?

  275. dan says:

    By the way….how do you all know so much about the Frost family? Which of you have ever met them? Any of you do their tax returns? Any of you have access to their banking statements and paystubs? Does driving by their house make you an expert on their life circumstances?
    You googled them and drove by their house and now you think you know them enough to slander them. All in all you don’t seem to know jack squat about these people other than what Michelle Malkin told you (you know the lady who drove by their house in a real classy move).
    So you don’t truly know much at all about them yet you throw the whole family under the bus so that you can get your rightwing rocks off. How typical of the incompetence, laziness and mean-spiritedness of your kind.
    Picking on children with brain injuries…unfathomable.
    Thank god your time is up. Enjoy irrelevancy in the next decade or so losers….

  276. curvedbrain says:

    “Picking on children with brain injuries…unfathomable”
    What’s unfathomable are liberals who falsely claim that anyone here is “picking on the children”. They know it’s a lie which they can’t back up, but they continue to repeat it anyway..

  277. Troll Feeder says:

    Xanthippas 2007-10-10 14:03: “…they must squander their equity on health care expenses.”
    Why is it squandering for them to spend their own money on their health problems, but yummy, righteous goodness for them to spend mine?

  278. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Hi you poor heartless conservative Americans!
    I am Norwegian and I have studied in the US.
    As you probably know Norway together with many European countries have net immigration from the US. There are more Americans wanting to live in Norway than visa versa. It has been this way for many years. The people coming automatically take part in our health care program and get the help they need. Actually many old people come. I am not complaining, but hope more people from the US will com. I have still not met the heartless conservatives that will not help people in need. In Norway we are as you mostly Christian. Is this part of American conservative’s Christian values?
    As a Norwegian I know that the values of many of your settlers were not this heartless, when did this appear in the American culture how did it evolve?

  279. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    If it interests you poor artless conservatives! I want to add.
    The productivity of your country is not higher because you underpay and do not take care of the “unlucky” people of your country.
    Read this:
    … seven OECD countries have passed the U.S. in productivity: Norway, with 131 percent of U.S. productivity levels; Belgium, 11 percent; Netherlands, 106 percent; Italy, 105 percent; France and Ireland, 103 percent; and Germany, 101 percent. The ability of these countries to surpass U.S. productivity in 2002 suggests that their comprehensive welfare and collective-bargaining systems have not stymied income growth or improvements in economic efficiency relative to the more free-market-oriented U.S.
    Even though you ONLY have $43,800 (2006 est. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html) Per capita in your poor country you should have enough to give your people the security they need to be more productive!

  280. curvedbrain says:

    “There are more Americans wanting to live in Norway than visa versa.”
    That’s because your country has a lot of hot chicks, and also a need for importing foreign skilled workers to handle your oil industry… What is the average pay of nurses in Norway? Doctors?
    More here US http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242

  281. curvedbrain says:

    “If it interests you poor artless conservatives!”
    Yes, we conservatives are all so devoid of art… just a bunch of uneducated redneck hayseeds married to their cousins. We can see that you really know what you’re talking about.
    One of the most interesting things I learned in my visits to Norway was that police have to keep their gun in a locked box, and cannot under any circumstances open that box without permission from a supervisor. This leads to some dangerous situations for police. Bad guys know that they can blast away at police, knowing that the poor cops who survive have to first contact a supervisor before unlocking the gun box in order to (belatedly) fire back. Talk about heartless. But OTOH, Norway does have hot chicks.

  282. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    “What is the average pay of nurses in Norway? Doctors? ”
    For bublic healt care.
    nurses average = $56727 per year (2004)
    Doctors average = $91090 per year (2004)
    Private are higher. This is average.

  283. curvedbrain says:

    “Private are higher.”
    I’m just curious why would anyone there need private, if the government healthcare is so wonderful?

  284. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    No, but we want the right to choose. That way both improve and we get competition.
    And keep in mind. I have lived in the US for many years with unlimited health insurance from the State (all Norwegian visiting the US have unlimited health insurance from our government. I have tried your hospitals and health care system and are not very impressed. In fact, I decided to go back to do a major sugary.
    But, all people around the world know that you ignorants think you have the best system in the world. For gods sake even your president have hardly seen anything but the US.

  285. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Nurses average in the US = $54,574 per year (2004)
    Why did you ask about that?

  286. curvedbrain says:

    “I have tried your hospitals and health care system and are not very impressed. In fact, I decided to go back to do a major sugary.”
    Let me take a wild guess – surgery in Norway cost you much less out of pocket $$ as compared to having the surgery in the US. Did I guess right?
    “Why did you ask about that?”
    I used have a Norwegian nurse as a girlfriend back in 1999 that I met when I was traveling there regularly. And at that time, she made only a little over 1/2 of the average wage you cite. Very low nusing wages back then compared to her US counterparts. I’m guessing there have been some big salary jumps in Norway for nurses over that time period playing catchup.

  287. curvedbrain says:

    “But, all people around the world know that you ignorants think you have the best system in the world.”
    Well, I can’t speak for all my fellow ‘ignorants’, but the US does have the best healthcare system in the world for those who have insurance, which is most people here.

  288. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    “Let me take a wild guess – surgery in Norway cost you much less out of pocket $$ as compared to having the surgery in the US. Did I guess right? ”
    NO, as mentioned – I had an unlimited coverage (the same as all other Norwegians in the US) provided by the Norwegian government. I would not have to pay anything even though I did the surgery in whatever hospital in the US. Don’t you get a similar insurance when you are abroad? No, I forgot, most western countries would take care of you even if you did not (Even Cuba would)? And you are probably to afraid to go to other countries without your gun and gun loving police – think of “all the theorists and their heartless religions” :- )
    Sad story about your girlfriend – she was laying.

  289. curvedbrain says:

    “Sad story about your girlfriend – she was laying.”
    Yes, we did lay together many times.

  290. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    According to US Census Bureau the average incom of an US employee in 2006 was only $26,036, and a average houshold had $48,201.
    In Norway the average income per person in 2004 was $88438,14.
    It is also general knowledge that the managers in the US has much higher income than managers in the rest of the world, making me guess – the other end of the scale have lower incom than most vestern countries.
    Keep in mind that Norwegians do not have to spend their incom on health care insurance.
    I am wondering, how can you americans with such a low average incom have monney to pay for good health insurance? I forgott, many of you don’t.
    Did you say – “the best”.

  291. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Sorry. Correction – In Norway the average income per person in 2004 was $70182,56. Not $88438,14 as posted over.

  292. curvedbrain says:

    Wow, nurses in Norway make considerably less than average then. And your US figures regarding average US employee are wrong. And you call us ignorant?

  293. Onion Volcano says:

    Divisive conservatives, so angry at Democrats and “liberals.” Good thinking.
    Suck it up. The rest of us have to pay for your chickenhawk war. You guys can help with hospital bill for American children.
    “Liberals” would do it for you, despite your protestations that you wouldn’t need help. Everyone needs help sometime.

  294. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Look for your self. There is a lower statistical error than in an average US election (do you believe you have a well functioning democracy as well :-)
    http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new02_001.htm
    HINC-02. Age of Householder–Households, by Total Money Income in 2006, Type of Household, Race,
    and Hispanic Origin of Householder
    [Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, 2007 Annual Social and Economic Supplement.
    Numbers in thousands. Households as of March of the following year.
    A.O.I.C. stands for alone or in combination]
    Median income….dollars…. 48,201
    Standard error..dollars… 207
    Mean income……dollars…. 66,570
    Standard error..dollars… 257
    Gini ratio……………… 0.447
    Standard error………… 0.0025
    B-Cell 1,140
    Income per household member… 26,036
    Standard error………….. 116
    For the first part of your comment, yes – nurses are paid less than the average. In my opinion they should have been paid better. If what you are insinuating is that their pay make them less skilled, I believe you are on the wrong track.

  295. curvedbrain says:

    The $26,036 is a per household member, which averages in young children and spouses in the household who do not work.
    In your previous post, you erroneously attributed this $26,036 number to average income of “employees”. You were wrong to do so. You are also wrong with your average income per person in Norway number. This, and your comment about nurses, leads me to the opinion that you are not particularly bright. That’s probably why you are so easily influenced by leftist opinion.

  296. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    I fail to see your clever point. Nurses in Norway earn a bit more than nurses in the US(http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3689/is_200410/ai_n9431354) . You point out that they earn less than the average in Norway. I agree. Good for me and you. And the point is?
    I see that you are right about the $26,036 is per household member. This still does not change the fact that each person in Norway(*) has a much higher income than the average household in the US(**). Further more, it still does not answer my question how people with so low average income can expect the poorest to afford insurance?
    It sounds like most of the discussion about helping someone is evolving into proving that they do not need help. Why are you Americans so afraid of helping someone? Why can’t you enjoy the blessing of being helpful? Has nobody ever helped you? When you where not in desperate need, but enjoyed some help?
    Is it the economy as a whole you are thinking about? Do you believe the country as a whole would benefit from putting Graeme Frost family inn a big depth or family misery?
    *) From this page http://e24.no/arkiv/article977093.ece you find the average income NOK 346.500. 346500 NOK=70283,98 USD
    **) see over Mean income……dollars…. 66,570
    Another one – Why are American’s life-expectancy so low if your health care are so good?

  297. curvedbrain says:

    Sorry, I don’t read Norwegian. But if your source is like this one http://www.ssb.no/english/yearbook/tab/tab-354.html , it’s adding the income of both partners/spouses together instead of giving a per employee breakdown. This report is confusing, but it appears to report that in 2004, average combined salary for both husband and wife or partner totaled 263,080 Kr, which = $48,585 US
    “Why are American’s life-expectancy so low if your health care are so good?”
    First, you are ignorant to make such a claim, as the differences in life expectancy between the US and Norway is negligible, 78 yrs in the US versus 79.7 Norway. Due to our relative affluence, we have a lot of overweight people, and a lot of drug addiction. Issues that have nothing to do with the quality of our healthcare system, but which certainly affect life expectancy. In addition, US women are more likely to have fertility treatments, resulting in risky pregnancies. I don’t know for sure, but I’d guess that the death of young children from these risky pregnancies count against the overall life expectancy number. A better number to use as an apples to apples comparison on quality of healthcare treatment would be cancer survival rates between countries. You might look into that one and get back to us.
    “It sounds like most of the discussion about helping someone is evolving into proving that they do not need help. Why are you Americans so afraid of helping someone? Why can’t you enjoy the blessing of being helpful?”
    In that spirit, would you be so kind as to help me by wiring me $20,000 US? You could enjoy the blessing even more by sending me $50,000 US. How does that sound to you?

  298. norcal says:

    And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, “Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
    He said unto him, “What is written in the law? how readest thou?”
    And he answering said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.”
    And he said unto him, “Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.”
    But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, “And who is my neighbour?”
    And Jesus answering said, “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, and went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, ‘Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.’
    “Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?”
    And he said, “He that shewed mercy on him.”
    Then said Jesus unto him, “Go, and do thou likewise.”
    (Luke 10:25-37)

  299. Frankie says:

    “ime passed. I worked hard, finished school, and moved into much better positions. It was never easy, but we made it.
    At no time did I expect or look for assistance. It was my responsibility to take care of myself and my child. I did just fine, thanks very much.”
    —————-
    Did your school included Reading 101? Graeme Frost suffered multiple trauma in an ACCIDENT. That is why his family needed S-CHIP.
    Let me ask you this: Would you have “look for assistance” if that had happened to YOUR daughter?
    Yes right?
    Would you have been horrified at the idea that there was a program targeted at helping you avoid bankruptcy and financial destitution for the next decade, while insuring that your daughter could receive quality care?
    Very easy for you to pontificate that “I did just fine”. You did fine because you did not endure any catastrophe. That has nothing to do with your self-proclaimed moral fortitude, but more with plain dumb luck.
    Frankie

  300. Frankie says:

    Norcal,
    I just saw your post citing Luke 10:25-37.
    Thank you very much for posting it.
    This should close any further discussion.
    Frankie

  301. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Here is the US income broken down:
    http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/sp/ncbl0910.pdf
    Showing the income to be $41231=203269 NOK
    I do not know what the number you quoted are. It seams to have something to do with agriculture.
    The average income in Norway are on this page all the way from 1945 until today.
    http://www.ssb.no/histstat/aarbok/ht-0901-lonn.html
    And the amount is:
    376100 NOK=76288,03 USD
    This is however not important, the important thing is that Americans can afford a system that helps unlucky people and so can Norway. And even more important, poor people in the US need it!
    What do you need the money for? Are you in any sort of problem? My economic situation would not allow me to transfer the whole amount you ask for, but if you need money I would of cause be glad to help a nice guy like yourself. Please explain and we can see what can be arranged.
    You never know – next time maybe I need some help? I am sure I then could relay on you if you were betteroff then than now.

  302. curvedbrain says:

    “What do you need the money for?”
    I want a new SUV

  303. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Thanks Frankie.
    Its good to see some thought through arguments.
    Everyone could get into a situation they cannot handle just because of bad luck.
    And then they would relay on their family, friends etc.
    What is so different by relaying on Americans to stand up for each other? Taking away the uncertainty.

  304. curvedbrain says:

    “Everyone could get into a situation they cannot handle just because of bad luck.
    And then they would relay on their family, friends etc. ”
    Exactly, and if both grandparents of the children are wealthy, which they seem to be, why not ask the grandparents to pay rather than asking taxpayers? Or how about taking a 2nd or 3rd mortgage on some of their real estate? Or getting a full time job? It’s not just that the frosts “suddenly” lost a job. The newspaper articles said they have been not been employed full time for many years. Why, after so much time, are they not on their own feet? And how did they afford their house and 3 cars including a new Volvo SUV? It must be pure evil to ask such questions of those receiving govt benefits.

  305. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    One could just wonder why it is so bad to help this family.
    Lets say that probably luck and bad luck is evenly distributed in society and time.
    Do you believe that removing the great uncertainty among poor people would increase their capabilities, productivity and creativity? Do you believe that this would create gains for the society?
    If you have ever been worried or experienced to much stress you might have seen how this has an impact on your other achievements. Most people have seen this.
    I do not think you are “pure evil” you are probably just afraid off not getting your share of the cake.
    You probably believe that you are above average in income, security network and society contribution and feel it is wrong to chare of pure egoistic reasons.
    You believe it is very simple for the people below average in income, security network and society contribution to want to share with you because they want to equal out the differences.
    This makes you so afraid of loosing that you don’t se the benefits that’s gets back to you.

  306. curvedbrain says:

    “Do you believe that removing the great uncertainty among poor people would increase their capabilities, productivity and creativity? Do you believe that this would create gains for the society?”
    Do you support govt benefits intended for poor people to be paid to those who are could pay themselves without excessive hardship? How much in assets would you consider “too much” before drawing a line? $200k? $800k? $3 million? Do you think rewarding bad choices will result in more or fewer bad choices being made by these adults and others in the future? What does it say to hardworking families who, in similar situations with less priveleged background and less assets, did not accept govt benefits, but instead did what it took to take care of their families without govt help?
    Do you think it irresponsible to buy expensive business property while ignoring insurance for their children? Is it acceptable for college educated parents with young children not to work full time for so many years while not insuring their family, then expect taxpayers to pay for this horrible judgement?
    These are the critical kinds of questions and issues which define a society. I think you’re an intellectually dishonest phony Bruno. You posture and name call (‘ignorants’, ‘heartless’, etc) as if you are morally superior, yet you cannot address even the most fundamental aspects of this debate.

  307. truth machine says:

    Just more evidence that all right wingers are assholes.

  308. truth machine says:

    In that spirit, would you be so kind as to help me by wiring me $20,000 US? You could enjoy the blessing even more by sending me $50,000 US. How does that sound to you?
    Is that how much Graeme Frost is costing you?

  309. truth machine says:

    Well, I can’t speak for all my fellow ‘ignorants’, but the US does have the best healthcare system in the world for those who have insurance, which is most people here.
    Ignorant assholes, at that. No, the US does not have the best healthcare system in the world — because insurance companies serve as a filter to distance people from needed health care.

  310. truth machine says:

    Bad guys know that they can blast away at police
    Yeah, that’s why so many more Norwegian police are shot than US police.
    Dishonest ignorant assholes.

  311. Troll Feeder says:

    “What do I need the money for??!?!??”
    Because it’s mine you f@#&ing b@st@rd. I got up, went to work, and earned it.
    Following your reasoning, what do you need your wife for? I want a piece of that. Who are you to tell me I can’t have it?
    Frost plays the grasshopper to our ants, and then along with you has the gall to DEMAND that we support his foolishness. The ants in the fable supported him out of charity, and he learned to quit being such a twit.
    Frost and you appear determined to learn no such thing, however. That simple children’s story seems too deep for you to fathom, Bruno.
    Life is always uncertain. The Frosts could have worked to defend themselves from that uncertainty, but they, like you and many of your childish European ilk have decided that Mommy and Daddy in the form of their fellow citizens will always come to their rescue if only they are pathetic enough.
    Feh.
    Your immaturity and voracious refusal to carry your own freight to the limits of your ability are disgusting. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

  312. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno 2007-10-12 19:38
    “One could just wonder why it is so bad to help this family.”
    We have never argued that it is bad to help this family, other than the harm that an enabler does to his enablee.
    We have continually and consistently argued that it is wrong to DEMAND that we help someone who was perfectly capable of supporting himself. Someone whose own selfish and immature choices led directly to his DEMANDS on our…well it’s not charity if it’s taken at the point of a gun, now is it?
    What exactly will it take for you people to even hear our side of the argument? Your constant refusal to acknowledge what we have consistently said calls your honesty into question.

  313. norcal says:

    I’m just wondering…..why is there no outraged complaining about our fire, police and paramedic services? Shouldn’t those who work, and are responsible people deserve to get better police protection? Why should those slackers on unemployment and welfare get the same paramedic services as those of us who pay most of the taxes that support these services? Why should people be allowed to suck dry our police agencies that we work hard to pay for? If those poor folk in the bad neighborhoods want services, they aught to buck up and pay the same as the rest of us. Tehy shouldn’t be allowed to use the fire department, when they burn down their houses because they were too damn lazy to work hard enough to afford the electric bill that month, and they let a candle burn the curtains. Stupid people, don’t they know better?

  314. curvedbrain says:

    Point made norcal. Some aspects of our safety net system are already socialist in nature.. If a parasitic scumbag ODs and his crackpipe lights the house on fire, everybody pays for his fire dept. bill. It isn’t right, it isn’t moral, and it isn’t fair, but it’s the way it is. I’m not sure what your point is norcal.. can you please elaborate?

  315. curvedbrain says:

    “because insurance companies serve as a filter to distance people from needed health care.”
    But what’s even worse, is that governments ration health care. Note the lack of MRI machines per capita in Canada and socialist nations versus US as just one example. Make all the excuses you want for that huge gaping discrepancy. So many of you are dishonest to the core and cannot admit that your own national socialist healthcare systems are the cause of the problem. It’s your dishonesty that is hurting people.

  316. curvedbrain says:

    Point made norcal. Some aspects of our safety net system are already socialist in nature.. If a parasitic scumbag ODs and his crackpipe lights the house on fire, everybody pays for his fire dept. bill. It isn’t right, it isn’t moral, and it isn’t fair, but it’s the way it is. I’m not sure what your point is norcal.. can you please elaborate?

  317. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    You lack history. This kind of liberal-conservativism where the fire department are private and only let out the fire of the insured has been tried in Europe. I believe they had it in England all the way up to the 1850’s. I can tell you that the people that did not pay for their fellow citizen did NOT benefit economically. The loss came back to them.
    Kind of like – nobody in the small town would pay when the house of the baker burned.
    At the same time the about 4 million Irish people died of hunger because the price of wheat and oats was higher in England, and the liberal-conservative did not want to intervene with the marked “superior” way of solving problems.
    Many American ancestors new all about this, it is a pity the truth has been lost in your awareness.
    British politicians quoted Adam Smith in 1850 – and believed in it:
    “How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortune of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it except the pleasure of seeing it. “
    “Every man is, no doubt, by nature, first and principally recommended to his own care; and as he is fitter to take care of himself than of any other person, it is fit and right that it should be so. “
    To the comment: Do you think rewarding bad choices will result in more or fewer bad choices being made by these adults and others in the future? What does it say to hardworking families who, in similar situations with less priveleged background and less assets, did not accept govt benefits, but instead did what it took to take care of their families without govt help?
    I would point attention to the word “choice”. It should be “luck”.

  318. datadave says:

    “US has the best health care in the world”
    what a joke! We’ve got the lowest stats in the developed world. Maybe we’re slightly ahead of Cuba?
    we currently pay about 17 percent of GNP for a bloated inefficient health care system that dictates the price and allows no competition. All the other nations have much less costs and better results even though their people smoke more than ours.
    As for competiton, All insurance rates are similar in each state. And they aren’t accountable to the public and guilty of cherry picking only the most healthy and least likely to need help. Nearly 30 percent of each dollar of ‘health care’ goes to the insurance accounting…with a good amount going to Golf-playing-on-weekday execs. skimming off the cream.
    Agreed that the Frosts might be ‘alternative’ types….neo Hippy’s perhaps..so that makes em bad? Seems smart to me that they did so well on such low income. But forcing them to pay 1200 K a month for a bloated insurance premium that wouldn’t have covered much that their children suffered? Everybody that suffers a tragedy like they did and has Private Insurance soon finds out that the small print they didn’t read kicks and that they suddenly are confronted with costs uncounted and unpaid by the insurance. I’ve not heard good outcomes from the victims…meanwhile most of us win the lottery and don’t realize how little our ‘insurance’ covers.
    Health Insurance is a rip off in the USA. That’s why the govt. needs to step in.

  319. datadave says:

    $1200 a month. excuse me.

  320. datadave says:

    Thanks Bruno.
    For Enlightening US.
    Believe me, the US Sucks for working people like Mr. Frost and me….but there is a large segment of inherited wealthy in the US who pay few taxes (only 15 percent on capital gains) and get unlimited healthcare from their corporate connections…for which they pay less than one percent of their income if they are in the million and above class.
    Private Insurance in the US charges a flat “head” rate with even higher costs for those in low income risky professions like roofing and lumbercutting. In fact a millionaire pays much less than a lumberjack (who now very rarely has insurance, being usually self employed and not covered by an employer’s plan…admitted to me by a large lumber operator in my area). Many in America are also covered by ‘employers’ who take a huge cut out of the employee’s potential income to pay for private health insurance: usually about a quarter or more of that employee’s income. More than most people’s taxes.
    We in America have a huge TAX, A Republican tax. 15 to 25 percent of a ‘covered’ employees potential income is sent to a private health insurance company which sends that money to the top 1 percent who now own over 50 percent of everything in the US.
    You are lucky to be Norwegian…. Many Americans would like to emigrate…but can’t afford it. Look at the Euro blowing away the dollar. And we are so ignorant of languages….we couldn’t deal with intelligent discourse in a foreign land. I do like the US, our landscape and some of our people..but there’s a lot to be ashamed of: Southern Confederates and Republicans esp.

  321. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Thanks, but I should not lecture you.
    I must admit, I really like the US and most and the Americans I have ever met.
    I have enjoyed your educational system and have only good things to say about your public universities on the west-coast.
    The only reason why I had to comment on this site is that I have a reputation of speaking highly about the US among my friends in Norway. For this reason my father sent me a link to a Danish newspaper telling the Graeme Frost story, to see my reaction. I feel sorry for the fact that I can not anything but criticise the conservative’s response to this 12 year old boy’s story?
    And I regret to tell, that supporting the US in debates in Norway has been increasingly difficult with your many issues for the last two periods. The US is about to be looked at very different when seen from the out side than you US citizens believe. And this has changed dramatically with: Katrina, the 2000 election, the torture, the CIA hijacking of people, the justice system, the claimed WMD, the claimed linkses of Al Quaida and Irak, Iran policy, etc.
    And for the money, income, expenses and tax: I had the opportunity to work in the US and some of my fellow Norwegian friends studying in California did take advantage for that opportunity. This was more than 10 years ago, and they have all returned now. I can tell you this – the money and living is better here – please do not go around believing everything is better in the US. Especially, if you do not know how living in other countries are.
    Thanks datadave, I just had to. I feel very sorry for the 12 year old kid and whish I could take back what others had said – not only for him, but for the reputation of the United Stats of America.

  322. Troll Feeder says:

    datadave 2007-10-13 06:35:
    “…the US Sucks for working people like Mr. Frost and me…”
    This is satire, right? Working people who CHOOSE to work part-time at lower paying endeavors don’t have the same level of financial success as those who apply themselves more assiduously?! Heaven forefend!!!
    And Bruno, I feel sorry for any 12-year old whose parents put their own fun and freedom from hard work before their responsibility to take care of their kids, too.

  323. Cactus Wren says:

    No offense, Brund… but Norway’s reputation is not so sterling here. Some folks here think the Nobel Committe is out of their ever-lovin’ minds for the selections they’ve made over the years for the Nobel Peace Prize.
    This year is no exception.
    Surely there was someone more worthy, someone in the world actually working for peace, than to have to stoop to a movie filled with misinformation made by a hack politician.
    They won’t show it in Great Britain to school children without first explaning that it’s political propaganda and pointing out the fallacies.

  324. datadave says:

    thanks again Bruno.
    Yupp, Cactus wren. No one from a civilized nation like Norway or most of Europe or Asia wants a health system like ours. You probably don’t know the couple of American-Chinese people who left this country for Singapore when they discovered how vile this country’s health care system can be upon those who become sick or injured. The American man of this couple said we have enough of the US and opted for Singapore. My future bro in law is moving Thailand after marrying a Thai for similar reasons.. .even there (in a near Third World condition) people and the govt. take care of the medical needs of the elderly and sick better than here. Get sick here and you’ll be hounded by debt collectors the rest of your life and that’s With Insurance.
    Few Americans travel abroad in comparison to Europeans and upper class Asians. So we’re basically ignorant.

  325. datadave says:

    Troll feeder is who I was responding to. Not so much cactus wren. But he’s off base too….jeesh. I know Swedish Americans who love to move back there too and a friend of mine’s family who was in Lillihammer adored Norway. Unfortuantely, it’s very difficult for Americans to move abroad with our low income and weak dollar.

  326. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    No offence taken Cactus Wren, Al Gore was not among my favourites either, nor was Nixons Secretary of State Henry Kissinger in 1973. The Nobel Committee however is independent and makes their own decisions.
    Is he, Henry Kissinger, among your “more worthy” selection?
    I do not think however, that the Nobel Committee gives Norway a bad reputation.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/15/world/main649513.shtml
    I do not, however, believe that Norway have a image problem like the US.
    Is it so hard to imagine that you could be in a similar situation? Where you needed help? Lets say your kid health insurance did not cover skiing accidents and you forgot to check that part before you went skiing and had a serious accident. Let’s say you did not have the money for a 5 month hospital bill for your kid. Let’s say you got money from this program. Is it then hard to believe that you and your kid would be thankful and want to share the good working system?
    Or let’s Americanise the example Your kid accidentally shot himself with the gun you had not locked in – because you felt it would slow you down in need for fast response if attacked. Your insurance did not cover this type of accident even though you believed it was your right to have loaded guns laying around within your kids reach.

  327. norcal says:

    Bruno,
    I wrote about the fire,police, and paramedics as snark. It was to get just the type of reaction that curvedbrain gave, when he said about crack addicts getting paramedic services:
    “If a parasitic scumbag ODs and his crackpipe lights the house on fire, everybody pays for his fire dept. bill. It isn’t right, it isn’t moral, and it isn’t fair.”
    To say this isn’t right or moral flies in the face of everything that a civilizied and enlightened society believes.
    Sadly, this is the state of the U.S. neo-cons of today. Narcissistic and intellectually dishonest. Some years back, when I was more naive, I would have thought that he was writing this sort of drivel just as a flame war, to get negative feedback. Sort of how I used to think of the Rush Limbaugh show. Now, I know that it is not a put-on, these people really are as selfish and mean as they appear. These attitudes are ruining our country, corrupting everything that it truly stands for. What is so mind-boggling is how many so-called “Christians” talk this way.
    I’m not perfect, but I try to take care of my family, and I know that as a civilized person it is in our societies best interest to chip in spiritually and monetarily for the benifit of those less fortunate. and yes, this includes families that still have equity in their house and drive newer cars.

  328. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Norcal,
    I agree, and am as surprised as you. Do these people live on planet earth? I thought they belonged to the dark planet Vulcan together with Dart Vader.

  329. curvedbrain says:

    “”If a parasitic scumbag ODs and his crackpipe lights the house on fire, everybody pays for his fire dept. bill. It isn’t right, it isn’t moral, and it isn’t fair.”
    To say this isn’t right or moral flies in the face of everything that a civilizied and enlightened society believes.”
    So then, citizens who are blatently irresponsible, someone who ODs and lights the house on fire with his crackpipe as the specific example, it would “fly in the face of everything a civilized society believes” to send them a bill for the Fire Dept.’s cost? It must then similarly fly in face of an enlightened society to require the guilty party in a car crash to pay all damages. We need to get to work on that auto liablity abomination ASAP before we lose all our humanity

  330. curvedbrain says:

    “You lack history”
    We have enough history to notice that bloodthirsty Europeans gave the world its two world wars last century and finished it up with genocide in the Balkans.

  331. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    If someone intentionally pots his ore other s hoses on fire they should be punished, and they could pay for the fire department as well! We might discuss American drug policy and car insurance some other time, but here we should get back to the Graeme Frost, the health care system in the US, the hate campaign and American values.
    Curvedbrain, as I understand you, you believe that everybody in the US should be insured for everything they might encounter. In that way their life are covered and the “bad-luck” factor does not affect their situation? You believe that everyone is entitled to choose not to ensure him or herself, but if something happens they should pay for it. You are even willing to lett fellow young citizens die or live in misery if their parents did not consider they could afford insurance.
    At the same time, you believe every American can afford the insurance they need? And if they do not it is their own fault. This also holds for mentally sick people, people with any sort of addictions – it’s their own fault.
    You never expect any help from others and therefore you expect them to never need anything from you – the minimalistic version of the “behave towards others the way that you would want others to behave towards you.”
    Please elaborate if I have understood you wrongly?
    I was waiting for this war US-proud-claim – it always surface when ignorants like you do not have good arguments and want to jump on your high horse.
    OK, ONE QUESTION ABOUT EUROPEAN WAR HISTORY: DID THE US GO TO WAR AGAINST GERMANY OR DID THEY WAIT UNTIL THE GERMANS WENT TO WAR WITH THEM? AND ONE MORE- HOW MANY EUROPEANS DIED IN THE MEANT TIME AND HOW MANY “911”-EQUAL SITUATIONS HAPPENED BEFORE THAT?
    By the way, I still would prefer to continue on the actual theme.

  332. Fred Beloit says:

    OK, Bruno, back to the theme. I oppose any and all government spending on what should be recognized as charitable endeavors. Health care is one of those. However, these programs wherein the government forces us to be charitable because certain leftist pols want us to be needs to be phased out so those who have included Medicare and such in their planning wouldn’t be suddenly cut off. Let’s start now with 18-year-olds.

  333. curvedbrain says:

    “I was waiting for this war US-proud-claim”
    Well except for those voices in your head, you must still be waiting that claim, as I wrote nothing about ‘war US-proud’. I only made a historical observation which had nothing to do with the US role in those wars.

  334. curvedbrain says:

    “Curvedbrain, as I understand you, you believe that everybody in the US should be insured for everything they might encounter”
    Where did I write that? Must be the same place I wrote about all those “US-proud” war claims that don’t exist. It’s a lot easier to debate within your own imagination, isn’t it?

  335. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno 2007-10-13 16:06:
    “You believe that everyone is entitled to choose not to ensure him or herself, but if something happens they should pay for it. You are even willing to lett [sic] fellow young citizens die or live in misery if their parents did not consider they could afford insurance.”
    Actually, we have pretty much been talking about middle class moochers who have the resources to protect themselves but choose instead to spend them on frivolity. Or I have been talking about that, at least. Otherwise, you are pretty much right on about me being OK with letting people suffer the consequences of their own folly.
    Child abuse / abandonment generally results in children being taken from their parents. In warranted cases, I have no problem with that, either.
    I have to laugh at how much of an ingrate you are vis-a-vis the people who bled and died so that you could grow up speaking Norwegian rather than German or Russian. I’d say Norwegian rather than fascist or commie, but we didn’t manage to keep you from that. My country supplied aid convoys to all you simpering, appeasing fools long before we entered the war. We then entered the war and ended your enslavement.
    And all you can do is bitch that we took too long and that our reasons were somewhat self-interested instead of completely charitable.
    Again, you ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you probably don’t have the capacity.

  336. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    “took too long”?
    HITLER DECLARED WAR TO YOU. THAT’S WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE CHOICE ANYMORE!
    And thanks for the help, some of my family lives in the US, this is the same for most Norwegians. They are not distant relatives. I believe it is the same with most European counties. I would think they were able to help their family, and this is pretty much how we would think of Americans. I also believe that you have gained the money back from the investment in good relations – it’s a pity that this is not more often the approach for the US now.
    I do not however thank YOU, for what these people did? In the same way I do not blame YOU for the US slavery. And I am not that grateful towards the US of today.
    You are probably for foreign aid to help people a broad? It’s strange that the US contributes so little?
    It was funny to se how mush better the UN organized the tsunami-catastrophe than the Americans took care of their Katrina. All countries were prepared to help, but the US wanted to show the world how well you did without.
    Remember this was a relatively small thing. In a more dramatic catastrophe, like a big earthquake, or war on your soil – maybe you need help sometime. Don’t hesitate to ask – we will be ready.
    I see I am not on the contest of this page, but this request for me being “ashamed of [my]self” had to be answered.
    Instead I want to say to the Graeme Frost and his family, I feel ashamed for the American Republicans. I believe most of the world’s people (we are not communists nor fascist). I think you should be proud of Graeme Frost. He wanted to thank the system by telling others about it. He is young, but stood up for the whole of the American kids – maybe he grows up to be a peace prize winner. Fighting for the right of kids of America.
    Everytime some of these people like Rove (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove) and Wolfovich claim they are Norwegian – we feel very embarrassed. At least most of us do.

  337. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    One more thing – to you who “…have enough history…”
    Franklin D. Roosewelt was a Democrat.
    The GOP in the 1930’s was influenced by the Nazzis. But this is of cause old news and part of your own history.
    In fact, Franklin D. Roosewelt, was among few who wanted to go to war against Germany. It was good for him that Hitler declared war against the US so he could get support to go to war.
    I am glad we both agree that we should be thankful to Franklin D. Roosewelt – one of Americas greatest heroes.

  338. curvedbrain says:

    “we should be thankful to Franklin D. Roosewelt – one of Americas greatest heroes”
    Are you thankful that FDR put all those Japanese Americans in internment camp? Perhaps you might comment on that action of his, as it was a monumental decision during his presidency.. since you’re calling him one of our “greatest heroes”
    Regarding WWII, you say we didn’t enter until Hitler attacked us. Well first of all, if you weren’t so ignorant of history you would have known that we had a WWII situation on our hands fighting the Japanese in the Pacific. But because that’s not part of Europe ‘ignorants’ like you aren’t aware of it. Second, you seem to feel that we owed you our sacrifice, to drag apart you warmongering Europeans, just like we did in WWI. Europeans brought us both World Wars last century + genocide in the balkans + murderously oppressive European colonialization throughout Africa and parts of Asia.
    Incredibly ignorant of you to refer to “American” slavery without acknowledging Europe’s long history of slave trading, which included brutally oppressive European colonialization in Africa until the 1950’s.. in many ways European coloniazation was worse than slavery. Hey, it’s Western Europe’s recent history. Something to think about when you ingrates try and belittle the US role in keeping the bloodthirsty Europeans from tearing themselves into pieces last century.

  339. curvedbrain says:

    “It was funny to se how mush better the UN organized the tsunami-catastrophe”
    Is that how they reported it in your media? Because over here we saw film footage of US navy ships and helicopters and Australian military resources on the scene rescuing and aiding tsunami victims at least 1 week before the UN had organized any sort of significant aid effort to the tsunami victims, as the UN managers were busy staying in 5 star hotels trying to figure out what to do. And even after the UN finally got started, they continued to depend on those same US and Australian military resources to do much of the important work. Was this pathetic display by the UN reported in Europe as a UN “success”? Aren’t there still investigations going on over UN resources being pilfered and squandered in that tsunami aid effort?
    Are you ‘ignorants’ aware of any of this?

  340. Brun Laksevaag says:

    Where are you going with this my curved brained friend?
    Don’t you agree – we should be thankful to FDR’s decision in WWII? Were you supporting the other side (Republican) that didn’t want to help out their fellow European-allies. Don’t tell me that you were supporting the 1930’s GOP that where mingling with the Nazis.
    Interesting, this with the Japanese – but you know in war times, things get though. Just look at the torture issue now. This will probably not be the favourite part in GWB’s memoirs, similarly I do not think FDR’s favourite decision was the one you mentioned.
    I am thankful anyway!

  341. curvedbrain says:

    “(Republican) that didn’t want to help out their fellow European-allies”
    Republicans supported FDRs war efforts. Are you ever embarrassed by your ignorance? I’m just curious

  342. datadave says:

    Hi, Bruno. Still trying to educate these numbnut Republicans?
    You’re proof that the European Social Democratic model of governance is So Much Better than the NeoFascist DittoHead model of American subserience to the Wealthy Aristocracy that GW Bush represents.
    You hit it on the head. GWBush’s grandfather even as a Senator (or Congrassman) was still trading with the Nazi’s. He had to fold up his traitorous Shopping with the enenmy after FDR signed a trading with the Enemy Act.
    Now read about BlackWater’s atrocity in Iraq… and American rightwingnuts wonder why we are losing the hearts and minds of Iraqi’s?? What NUMBNUTS! http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/opinion/14rich2.html?ref=opinion
    I use abusive language here as that’s the only language they understand. They listen to Rush Limphead talk about liberals being the source of all that’s evil in America like a Neo Nazi talking about the “Jewish Problem” i.e. communists (replace the Nazi’s use of “Jews” with the word “Liberals” and you see he means elimination ala Nazi’s) and bloviates about saving a few of them around to show how bad a liberal is…(he actually said that!)_
    anyway, enjoy Norway’s lack of Terror. The Republicans want all Americans to FEAR terrorism..and yet where there is more acts of terror (in Europe) people are relatively peaceful and secure. Here it’s Economic Terror, no benefits, no state to protect citizens from preditory economic elites, just Terror all the Time.
    Even Merle Haggard’s given up on the Republicans….because as he says: Republicans have only fear to offer the American people.
    sorry, I can’t hang around to help educate the intellectually retarded Right Wing Americans. Gotta go enjoy some fresh air.

  343. Troll Feeder says:

    OK, Bruno…
    +1 on curvedbrain’s comments about the UN and the 2004 tsunami. The US was there providing aid immediately, and the UN didn’t manage to even to find it’s own keister for a week. Then the citizens of the US, out of the goodness and charity of their hearts, donated hundreds of millions of dollars to assist those injured by the tsunami in addition to the huge sums that our government spent. Much of which, apparently, was diverted into corrupt uses by the kleptocrat governments and NGO’s in the region.
    The US federal government is PROHIBITED from taking action internally without the request of the governor of the affected state. When the Democrat mayor and governor of New Orleans and Louisiana finally pulled their heads out after far too late, the feds got to work in LA, too. The federal government response to Katrina rescued more people over more area in less time than has ever been done by any country at any time in history. It was a big, ugly, shambolic mess, but the responsibility for the misery in New Orleans falls directly on the mayor and the governor. You don’t know what you are talking about.
    I never claimed that you needed to thank me, and you were not talking about the US of today. You were originally talking about and you have continued to talk about the US of the 1930’s and 40’s that rescued your parents’ sorry asses. I stated that if you had any decency at all you would show something other than contempt for those who pulled your feckless country’s chestnuts out of the fire. Instead you complain that we did not enter WW2 solely on your (Europe’s behalf); we waited until war was actually declared on us by the Japanese and the Germans.
    In fact, we had been supplying aid convoys to you feeble, spineless, irresponsible mopes for years by the time we were dragged in to yet another of your stupid, racist, antisemitic bloodbaths.
    To address the Frost topic here, if you had taken a stand against Hitler when he was ginning up for his war, then you could have prevented or monumentally mitigated WW2 in Europe. Even Hitler said that.
    Just like if the Frosts had bought their own insurance BEFORE they had an accident, then they would have received reasonable rate quotes. And if they had spent their money on important things (e.g. catastrophic medical insurance) rather than on Volvo SUV’s and fun but low paying, part-time work, then they would be called responsible parents instead of the societal mooches you seem to be claiming that everyone should aspire to be.
    And many, many thanks for paying back our WW2 investment in blood and treasure with your “good relations.” Cash would have been nicer, given what your good relations are obviously worth.

  344. datadave says:

    back for a moment…
    now this idea of insurance companies picking and choosing ‘clients’ and charging much less for the richer and more healthy….that’s just bogus. It undermines community and national unity. It’s unpatriotic.
    It’d be like sending off the most infirm and poorest among us to fight our battles in wars. Hmmm, nice analogy. Jenna Bush and Dick Cheney for example both said….’well, we have better things to do than go off to war’…paraphrased. Now, we’re picking high school dropouts, people from impoveished rural backgrounds, even immigrants to go off and fight for the oil barons..
    (represented by our Texas mob: Bush and Cheney..I diverge here….why didn’t some constitutionalists point out that Bush and Cheney were residing in the same state when they started their campaign…a technical unconstitutional fact. even if Cheney originally was a Congressman from Wyoming, he resided in oil country, Texas seven years prior to 2000)
    sorry troll feeder you’re defense of cherry picking health insurance companies is getting more lamer by the minute.
    Just outlaw the bastards I say. They are guilty of extorting money. Now, try Singapore’s and Taiwan’s health care system for size. Socialized medicine for the majority with private hospitals available for the wealthy. Better care for all and no excuses for lack of competition. The Public hospitals compete with the Private ones….so efficiency is much, much better than the Ogligarchic Health care system here. (where the higher the income one has, the less of percent of income one pays!)
    For one, in the Frost’s case, they should get a lower rate as they already called their chips in once and doubt they ever want to go back to the hosptal ever. (Which leads to another myth of Republicans: people really like to go to hospitals and ring up high bills…..)

  345. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Troll Feeder you really want me to feel ashamed.
    I can promise you that Norway did what they could to stop Nazi Germany. I know for a fact that my family was part of that and my grandfather was jailed and on the list of most dangerous people to the Nazi regime – newly released in Norway. I will not get into detail about Norwegian war history nor my family matters, but I do not think we would be neither communists nor fascists today if the Democrats in the US with FDR as front figure went to war with Germany. But it helped a lot – and it reduced the time of suffering!
    What would have happened IF – is hard to say, but I will mention one Norwegian contribution that could have changed the war. The sabotage of the Norwegian heavy water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage) to prevent the German nuclear energy project from acquiring heavy water is considered rather important. Heavy water could be used to produce nuclear weapons.
    This could have changed the war, and considering the US was a first target for German nukes, since they knew you had this manhatten project going at this time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project), maybe the history would have look different, than you think; if we did not do our part, and the US did not do their.
    It is however very difficult to say what would have happened – IF. No, this does not mean that I believe “you ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you probably don’t have the capacity.” I think you have the capacity! I would have. I am sure you are as grateful as me for this contribution. As I am for the American.
    And to you datadave, I am glad for your contribution and thanks for your comments. I hope you get some fresh air and can contribute more. You seem to have a lot of knowledge. I was in fact looking for some of the information you contributed.
    The only reason I am in this discussion is that I was very disgusted learning how someone were picking on people smaller than them. I am sure this story will reach all counties around the world, many people will feel sorry.

  346. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Frost family, I should not have used the word smaller than!
    When I said:
    “The only reason I am in this discussion is that I was very disgusted learning how someone were picking on people smaller than them. I am sure this story will reach all counties around the world, many people will feel sorry.”
    What I mean is, you are in a difficult situation for answering these ridiculous claims. And even if you definitely can, I understand why you do not – with this flock of hyenas after you.
    This is the worst of the worst on this planet. It is really frightening that they could be part of a country like United States of America.
    Graeme, do not let these people neither frighten you nor reduce your self-esteem. It is truly great what you did, with the support of the people that loves you and want to take care of you. I know I am proud of you, and I live far away in Norway. It is many more people like me on this planet (both near you and far away in all parts of the world) than these other ones that are saying the wrong things now.
    One more thing:
    I believe everyone would manage fine with the language English in Norway (and many other European countries – one point where I disagree datadave), and I believe you would be welcomed to Norway and probably many countries around the world.
    Don’t hesitate to leave if these “people” get on your nerves. But do not let them, you are strong, do what you want and be proud!

  347. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Was this the end of discussion? Thank you all!
    It is now 01:49 AM in Norway. God night! And God bless the United States of America.
    I have to be prepared tomorrow to get you the oil you need for your wonderful country! With so many good people, some I know, and most I do not know.
    Take god care of Graeme Frost and his family they are among you!
    One questions to you – please send the Frost families address to a Norwegian newspaper (in Bergen i.e http://www.fanaposten.no/ go to “tips oss” on the right) I would love to send them something from Norway. And I am sure other want to do the same, when they here this storey.
    Send info about this to the whole world. It is really hart-breaking.
    If you go to http://news.bbc.co.uk/ search for a country you find their “Country profile:” on the bottom of that you find “The press”, “Television” and “Radio”. Here you find the countries biggest newspapers, TV-stations and Radio-channels. Send them some links to this story with YouTubes and they would help this family get their story out.
    We have to stop this kind of people! Even though foreigners do not vote in the US we have impact.

  348. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    And for you good people of America, I believe in voting for Hillary Clinton (http://www.hillaryclinton.com/splash/) is your best option. Did you know, by the way, that a higher percentage of the Norwegian population has a favourite candidate for the US presidency than the American population?
    I do not know why.
    We do not have the right to vote in the US as you know, but we read a lot. We read the most newspapers in the world in percentage of population, even foreign newspapers. And we believe in the power of real democracy.
    Maybe that is why? We chose Hillary Clinton?

  349. Troll Feeder says:

    datadave 2007-10-14 15:38:
    “sorry troll feeder you’re defense of cherry picking health insurance companies is getting more lamer by the minute.”
    uhhhh….what are you talking about?
    You know that cherry picking generally means pulling one quote out of a longer discussion and using it to misrepresent the quotee’s original intent, right? The wording you have said above makes no sense, and I have cherry picked nothing. The quotes I’ve used have been used in exactly the manner the quotee intended.

  350. curvedbrain says:

    “but we read a lot. We read the most newspapers in the world in percentage of population, even foreign newspapers”
    Perhaps then you can explain why you (and many others in Europe?) believe that the UN did all the wonderful work with the Tsunami victims without acknowledgement that most of the work was done by the US and Australian military. Was that because your media has an extreme leftist bias? Please let us know what other possible explanation there could be. I would like to hear the “alternative” version of the truth in who really took care of the tsunami victims.

  351. curvedbrain says:

    “I can promise you that Norway did what they could to stop Nazi Germany.”
    Norway surrendered to Germany in less than 2 months while your king fled the country. What the hell are you talking about your country doing “what they could”? Is that what you’ve been told to think?

  352. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    SINCE YOU STOPPED THE DISCUSSION I WOULD LIKE TO REFER NEWCOMERS TO : Troll Feeder | Saturday, October 13, 2007 at 11:36 PM: Where you tell me to: “you ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you probably don’t have the capacity.” Here the interesting part are said in this horrible discussion. Be sure to read through to my answer all the way to Bruno Laksevaag | Sunday, October 14, 2007 at 08:27 PM
    IN BETWEEN IS WHERE THESE HYENAS ARE SET CHECKMATE AND WE (WHO BELIEVE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA) MANAGE TO GET THE DIGNITY BACK!
    RESPONSE TO THE CRAP AFTER THAT:
    Foreign aid:
    http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp
    I now you gave a little, but for the USA do you think it was enough?
    Katrina:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
    Actually my brother was standby paid for several days waiting for being called out as a professional navy diver. He would probably have saved several if you had accepted.
    Troll Feeder and curvedbrain shouldn’t you answer the bad war claims above?
    And please do not bring in the fact that the “Heavy Water made Israel’s Nuclear programme possible” Everybody in Norway Know!
    DO NOT THINK THIS GETS YOU AWAY FROM THE IMPORTANT PART ABOVE! SEE PART FROM Troll Feeder | Saturday, October 13, 2007 at 11:36 PM: to Bruno Laksevaag | Sunday, October 14, 2007 at 08:27 PM

  353. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Troll Feeder!
    SINCE YOU STOPPED THE DISCUSSION I WOULD LIKE TO REFER NEWCOMERS TO : Troll Feeder | Saturday, October 13, 2007 at 11:36 PM: Where you tell me to: “you ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you probably don’t have the capacity.” Here the interesting part are said in this horrible discussion. Be sure to read through to my answer all the way to Bruno Laksevaag | Sunday, October 14, 2007 at 08:27 PM
    IN BETWEEN IS WHERE THESE HYENAS ARE SET CHECKMATE AND WE (WHO BELIEVE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA) MANAGE TO GET THE DIGNITY BACK!
    ———————————
    RESPONSE TO THE CRAP AFTER THAT:
    Troll Feeder as you put it “you ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you probably don’t have the capacity?” to me. as I returned: “ I think you do have the capacity.”
    What are you feeling?
    It has to be good for you that a German Nazi ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage ) did hit the US with nuclear weapons.
    So what do you feel? Ashamed?
    And please do not bring in the fact that the “Heavy Water made Israel’s Nuclear programme possible” Everybody in Norway Know!
    ——————–
    DO NOT THINK THIS GETS YOU AWAY FROM THE IMPORTANT PART ABOVE! SEE PART FROM Troll Feeder | Saturday, October 13, 2007 at 11:36 PM: to Bruno Laksevaag | Sunday, October 14, 2007 at 08:27 PM

  354. datadave says:

    jeesh, Bruno. That Troll Feeder’s pretty ignorant. “Cherry-picking” is a common term in describing how insurance companies assess potential clients..meaning they only want the easiest, least likely to collect on their insurance. That’s why they want to drop anyone who might actually cost them some money. From wikipedia…which I think is a wonderful resource:
    “Business
    “Cherry picking is also used to refer to business policies of picking out profitable customers from a large base. An example of this use is that by only insuring healthy people and refusing to insure those who were unhealthy or are likely to become unhealthy, a health insurance company can cherry pick the most profitable customers. If an auto insurance company only insured good drivers by cherry picking them from among all drivers this would enable a company to gain an advantage over a company that insures all drivers.
    “To prevent auto insurance companies from cherry picking only the good drivers and leaving poorer drivers without any insurance, most states in the U.S.A. require auto insurance companies to insure a certain number of drivers with poor records.”

  355. Pierson W. W. Dilliwithers-Mathers III, Major, Confederate States Army (Retired) says:

    “— You are lucky to be Norwegian…. Many Americans would like to emigrate…but can’t afford it. Look at the Euro blowing away the dollar. And we are so ignorant of languages….we couldn’t deal with intelligent discourse in a foreign land. I do like the US, our landscape and some of our people..but there’s a lot to be ashamed of: Southern Confederates and Republicans esp. —”
    Pffah! Pffah, I say to you, datadave, you damnyankee bluebelly! How dare you lump the proud sons and daughters of the Confederate States of America with them low down dirty snake-in-the-grass carpet-bagging Republicans who destroyed our fair and magnificent country.

  356. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno, you are the one who declared an end to the discussion. I just went to work.
    If I understand you correctly, I am now on the hook for 1) financially underwriting anyone who fails to provide for themselves or who takes any personal financial risk, 2) saving Europe from the Nazi’s, though Norway was doing just fine by themselves and would have had the whole thing wrapped up some day, thank you very much, and 3) sitting keyboard-side full time so that I can respond immediately to any comment you make.
    Good to know.
    Did you even read the wikipedia article you (incorrectly) linked to regarding the Norwegian heavy water plant? The Norwegian resistance was massively aided by the British; the initial bombing damage to the plant was rapidly repaired; the final destruction of the heavy water came when a Norwegian successfully sank the ferry (killing a number of Norwegian civilians, which I point out only because I expect that you’d in all other circumstances scream foul about civilian deaths) carrying the supplies to Germany to keep them safe from constant BOMBING RAIDS THE US AIR FORCE CONDUCTED AGAINST THE PLANT.
    And the amount of heavy water obtained from the plant was utterly inadequate to make a bomb, and the Germans knew it.
    So your countrymen provided assistance to the British and Americans in our efforts to rid the world, including you, of the Nazi’s. And you complain that the US did not rescue you quickly enough, and that we really were unnecessary anyway because you would have eventually gotten rid of your “time of suffering” without us.
    I don’t care if you feel ashamed. However, I think you should feel so for holding forth against the nation that saved yours because we did that saving too slowly and for other than completely selfless reasons.
    As for your other seemingly infinite series of new and goalpost moving questions, I will consider responding to them when you directly and completely respond to any of the substantive questions I have raised.
    First and foremost of these is: why should I be held financially accountable for the poor decisions of a pair of people who HAD THE RESOURCES to protect their family, but CHOSE INSTEAD TO DO WHAT WAS EASIER AND MORE FUN? I have nowhere stated that their children should not have received care; I have consistently held that the “adult” Frosts should have to make financial sacrifices of their OWN long before I am FORCED to sacrifice for them. Have they no responsibility at all?
    Second, how exactly does asking this question make me a hyena?

  357. Troll Feeder says:

    datadave 2007-10-14 23:01:
    Fine. Different usage of cherry picking that made no sense to me because I have not made any defense of insurance companies.
    I have argued that the Frosts could have and should have provided for themselves before they ran into trouble.
    For a defense of insurance companies, however, I expect that a private insurance company would provide coverage for the Frosts even now if the Frosts would pay a premium that would not be guaranteed to lose the company money.
    Do you sign a lot of deals guaranteed to lose you money, datadave? It sounds like you thoroughly approve of the practice.
    Or do you only approve of it for others and not for yourself?

  358. Troll Feeder says:

    datadave sometime or other quoted by Dillhole 2007-10-14 23:21
    “..but there’s a lot to be ashamed of: Southern Confederates and Republicans esp.”
    You do know that it was the Republicans who began and executed the fight against the Confederacy, right?
    That it was the Republicans who abolished slavery, right?
    That it is the 2007 Democrats who have a former KKK Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops serving as their most venerated member of the Senate, right? (Fair comment that Byrd now says that he was wrong, some 60 years after it mattered.)

  359. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    SINCE YOU STOPPED THE DISCUSSION I WOULD LIKE TO REFER NEWCOMERS TO : Troll Feeder | Saturday, October 13, 2007 at 11:36 PM: Where you tell me to: “you ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you probably don’t have the capacity.” Here the interesting part are said in this horrible discussion. Be sure to read through to my answer all the way to Bruno Laksevaag | Sunday, October 14, 2007 at 08:27 PM
    IN BETWEEN IS WHERE THESE HYENAS ARE SET CHECKMATE AND WE (WHO BELIEVE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA) MANAGE TO GET THE DIGNITY BACK!
    ———————————
    RESPONSE TO THE CRAP AFTER THAT:
    Troll Feeder as you put it “you ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you probably don’t have the capacity?” to me. as I returned: “ I think you do have the capacity.”
    Toll Feeder, are you angry now? Aren’t things going your way?
    You say “the amount of heavy water obtained from the plant was utterly inadequate to make a bomb”?
    How come the nation that got the same heavy water rapidly became one of the most powerful nuclear powers?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4743987.stm
    Shame on you! Bringing untruth to the debate, just to show that the only important contributor in WWII was the US.
    Then you say: “you complain that the US did not rescue you quickly enough”. I was grateful to those FDR, but explaining to you why it took him so long with the Nazi mingling Republicans of the time.
    You whoever, take some sort of credit for the decision of the democrat Franklin D. Roosevelt and believe Norwegians are in some sort of dept to extreme-right wing Republicans like yourself because you after being attached by Hitler was dragged into the WWII. When in fact, it was a great chance that if the Republicans were ruling at the time, they would have joined the Nazis.
    You are still not ashamed? To top it all you harass children!
    ——————–
    DO NOT THINK THIS GETS YOU AWAY FROM THE IMPORTANT PART ABOVE! SEE PART FROM Troll Feeder | Saturday, October 13, 2007 at 11:36 PM: to Bruno Laksevaag | Sunday, October 14, 2007 at 08:27 PM

  360. seekeronos says:

    I reckon that the average Republican in the 1930s-1941 didn’t give a flying fig about the war in Europe, and that eventually, the Nazis would have petered themselves out against Russia – just as did actually did in history.
    If there had been a Republican president in the pre-war decade (not likely, given the politics of the USA during the Depression) I doubt that we would have been so quick as to engineer the conflict with the Japanese. At that time, Americans were an extremely isolationist lot (we still tend to veer that way, if not for the actions of the ruling globalist clique, regardless of their other political stripes).
    As for the Republicans who made dalliances with the Nazis, there is no way I could see us actively entering the war on the German side. Neutrality, certainly. But not active combat in league with the Germans: such an idea had disappeared with the days of the Kaiserreich.
    For FDR’s part, backing the Japanese into a corner (via intention to restrict trade via embargoes) with cut-offs to oil and rubber for its war machine, more or less forced Japan to make a move. Pearl Harbour silenced the isolationist factions and galvanized our spirit of vengeance against the Japanese (who just happened to have a mutual “defense” treaty with the rest of the Axis powers).
    There are only two reasons I could see for us to get involved in WW2:
    1) Because Japan threatened our access to Pacific trade (i.e. if Japan subjugated the bulk of the resource-rich former European East Asia, they might become awfully hard to dislodge once entrenched)
    2) The Nazis posed no real threat to America, since once after they opened the Russian front, it was only a matter of time until Mother Russia rolled them up back into Berlin. Our interest after that fact became less the defeat of Germany, and more the issue of denying Russia as much of a piece of the post-war remains of the Reich as possible.
    Add in other factors such as the internecine squabbling between the Luftwaffe and the Kreigsmarine over allocations of resources and efforts (such as the construction of the Flugzeugträger _Graf_Zeppelin, a colossal waste of tank and gun steel, especially considering it would never get out of Baltic waters in once piece with the RN holding the Channel and the North Sea more or less in a state of lockdown against anything bigger than a submarine or a merchant raider) or the ill-fated Amerikabomber, which *might* have been successful if not for Hitler’s refusal to let his General Staff do its job.
    Hitler was in fact Germany’s own worst enemy; especially after 1942. I’ve always believed that had he concentrated his gains in British/French Nordafrika, Scandinavia, and the western front vs. France and the low countries, he *might* have had a shot a bringing the UK to heel, (not likely a surrender, but she might have signed an armistice due to the threat of starvation, and Winnie Churchill’s declining popularity ca. 1942-1943 with the Blitz, etc.)
    Then, a generation or so later with a long range bomber in hand, and maybe a nuke (provided that some of the Jewish brain trust that had fled to to the Free West had had a reason to stick around)… who knows?
    As much as we Americans like to take credit for saving Europe’s bacon in WW2, I’d say that 60% of that goes to Russia, and 10% to various European resistance movements, and 10% to Hitler’s own stupidity, and 20% to America’s support and material via Lend-Lease, with a small fraction of that going to actual combat efforts.
    In actuality, we fought a holding action against the Japanese until our war industry was fully spun up, and we cut our combat teeth in Europe. By the time we had landed enough troops in the UK to mass against Germany for D-Day, Germany was already at its high-water mark, and starting to recede.
    I’d venture to say that pound for pound of TNT, dollar for dollar of ocean tonnage, and shell for shell, most of America’s contribution in WW2 was fought in the Pacific.

  361. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    WAR issue: (for Graeme Frost skip until *)
    Thanks for your, opinion, I do not agree to all, but it Is thought through and obviously filed with knowledge. I agree that the wartime Republicans would probably not have joined Hitler’s side. I think it is hard to say how long it would have taken the Germans to build the bombe, but their scientists did not lack the capacity.
    Norway had a population of 3 million at the time of the war, and with a coast line as long as the east-coast of America it was difficult to defend. Norways biggest contribution was probably:
    To keep “Norwegian merchant fleet outside German controlled areas. Nortraship operated some 1,000 vessels; was the largest shipping company in the world and is credited for giving a major contribution to the Allied war effort. It was however also criticised by the British for being too much focused on profit, and not enough on the war effort. The Norwegian countercharge was that British commercial interests were disguised as wartime needs.
    Nortraship had its main offices in London and New York, and was active during World War II. Nortraship was vital to Norway and the exile government as it lacked other sources to support the Allied fight against the Axis powers. The organisation handed the various vessels back to its owners when Norway was liberated in May 1945.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nortraship )
    This is more than twice as many ships as the US has even today.
    *
    Don’t you think it is a bit odd, when I use the freedom to speech in the land of the free – a lot of people tries to shut me up by old WWII arguments? I should be so grateful that I do not argue against you. This does not happen with other people than you Americans. Are you really so poor that you can not support your kids? Or even worse, are you rich but so egoistic that you do not want to?
    What part of freedom is important to you – if not the freedom to be able to speak and walk?
    Remember we are talking about a boy named Graeme Frost, who could not speak nor walk after a car accident. Shouldn’t he defiantly be right to have this freedom. He is in most part of the rich-world.
    I do not se why his parent’s decisions have any thing to do with this choice of humanity.
    What if it was a different family and the Republican father did not want to use money on his kid even though he was very rich. Wouldn’t his kid have the right for good treatment as well? If he lost the ability to speak and walk – what kind of freedom would “the land of the free” offer him?
    Tell me about this freedom that you are so proud of. What do you have that we do not?

  362. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno,
    I’ll forge ahead as if you would actually answer any of my questions.
    What untruth have I brought? You are the one who wrote (among other things):
    “OK, ONE QUESTION ABOUT EUROPEAN WAR HISTORY: DID THE US GO TO WAR AGAINST GERMANY OR DID THEY WAIT UNTIL THE GERMANS WENT TO WAR WITH THEM? AND ONE MORE- HOW MANY EUROPEANS DIED IN THE MEANT TIME AND HOW MANY “911”-EQUAL SITUATIONS HAPPENED BEFORE THAT?”
    Your own words indicate that you think the US had a duty to enter WW2 just to save the Europeans, regardless of whether Germany was at war with us. You wrote that, not me. As a side question, do you always support pre-emptive warfare? Or only when it is your head on the chopping block?
    You also provided the link to the wikipedia article showing that the Norwegians had substantial British help in temporarily damaging the heavy water reactor. The article then states that US Air Force bombing raids are what led the Germans to put the inadequate quantities of heavy water on the ferry the Norwegians sank.
    It is the article you linked to — not I — that states that the Germans knew that they would require at least five years of heavy water production from that plant to be able to produce a bomb.
    So what that the Israelis are alleged to have made a bomb using heavy water? I never said that bombs could not be made given enough heavy water. I quoted YOUR REFERENCE which states that the Germans did not get enough from the Norwegian plant. Can you not understand the difference?
    And you act like Norway deserves highest praise and honors because y’all actually participated in the liberation of your own country. Fair comment that Norway made some effort on its own behalf. Shame on you for berating the schedule of the folks who came to your aid. It appears that you want to be a chooser when you are a beggar. You ought to be praising Heaven that your interests aligned with ours.
    I never said that the US was the only important contributor to the defeat of the Germans in WW2. I only stated that Norway would very likely be speaking German or Russian right now had we not intervened. You responded with the example above, which as I have shown does not particularly support your case.
    You also created a scenario where without your Norwegian assistance, the US would have been subject to Nazi nuclear attack, and claim that I should be grateful to you for saving my country from this fate. Sure, I’m glad Norway made some efforts to contain the risk that NORWAY’S FAILURE TO DEFEND ITS OWN INDUSTRY placed upon my country, but I’m as likely to thank you for that speculative help as I am to praise and thank my neighbor for keeping his rabid, vicious, blood-thirsty dogs locked inside his fence. YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO CONTROL YOUR OWN DOGS!!!
    Moving on, again, I did not stop any discussion; I simply did not spend my every waking moment waiting to hear from you. I already answered this charge, and your refusal to acknowledge my response brings your honesty into question.
    I have harassed no children, and you have no evidence that I did. I have directly charged the adult Frosts with irresponsibility.
    Do you have any intention to address my questions regarding why I should be personally culpable for the Frosts’ financial mismanagement? That is what this discussion is supposed to be about, after all.
    Finally, I am not angry. For Pete’s sake, look at my name. Cranking up folks like you is what I do.
    *****
    seekeronos 2007-10-15 08:37:
    I am somewhat less sanguine than you appear to be about the possibility that Russia would have decisively beaten the Germans without our help, or at least that they would have routed the Germans from Western Europe after running them out of the East. In addition to forcing Germany to split its forces, we also ran a lot of supply convoys to the commies during the war (which I now notice you did mention).
    I mostly disagree with your percentages, I guess, rather than the idea that Hitler lost in large part because he made enemies on all sides.
    That being said, however, I agree 100% with your assessment that denying Stalin everything we could was a very high US priority.

  363. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno 2007-10-15 11:07:
    “– what kind of freedom would “the land of the free” offer him?
    Tell me about this freedom that you are so proud of. What do you have that we do not?”
    The most important freedom you can give another is the freedom from carrying your burdens.
    We have the liberty to succeed or fail on our own. You would deny us that.

  364. curvedbrain says:

    “The Nazis posed no real threat to America, since once after they opened the Russian front, it was only a matter of time until Mother Russia rolled them up back into Berlin”
    Only a matter of time? At the threat of de-railing the thread, that statement is ignorant and insupportable. The turning point was Stalingrad, and the Soviets came very, very close to losing there. American support to the Russians was pivotal, and without it, Russia would have folded. The US supplied the Russians their fuel, trucks, light tanks (Sherman), equipment and supplies.
    It was not at all any foregone conclusion as seeker suggests, that Russia would have prevailed without the US. And without heavy US assistance, Stalingrad would have fallen. It almost fell even with our help. The US sacrificed fewer soldiers, but without US industrial production and supply, Stalingrad and Europe would have fallen to the Germans.

  365. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    “We have the liberty to succeed or fail on our own. You would deny us that.”
    Everyone in Europe, Canada and most of the rich world have the liberty to succeed. How bad have you the liberty to fail? Really really bad? Even if it is just bad luck or someone else’s fault. How bad?
    For instance, if it was a really poor kid without insurance that got a brain injury because his grandmother did not look after him when he climbed the stairs.
    Curvedbrain and Troll Feeder, personally if it were you to decide, would you not hesitate to leave him/her without the ability to speak or walk even if you could make them able to do both? I am really want to know about this, and honestly I do not know how it works in the US.
    Without this CHIP (Children’s Health Insurance Program) would the system (of one of the richest countries in the world) let this kid be in a situation like that? Without being able to speak or walk.
    And after not doing anything with the brain damage left this fantasy kid in need of constant help.
    Would you two/the American system let him or her die then, or pay for the continuous care for the rest of his or her life. Where would the system get the money.
    In this example don’t drag inn any family or friends. He only had the grandmother and she is already dead.
    Don’t you have any social laws? For instance if you se a kid in a dangerous situation that would end tragically if you do not intervene. Do you have to help them? If you walk by an old man that has lost continence – do you have to help him?
    Curvedbrain and Troll Feeder – in the story above is your definition of a perfect society just to let the kid lay where he or she landed. Why should anyone be bothered cleaning up kids that cannot speak and walk? Soon rats would eat them anyway, or should we take their organs. Maybe that could pay for people picking them up. Then we could use their organs on people with the money.

  366. seekeronos says:

    I believe that a possible WW2 scenario (with US non-intervention with or w/o Lend-Lease, or limited to the Pacific theatre only) *could have* resulted in Germany controlling Europe west of the Oder River (in modern-day Poland) with a neutralized, but not utterly defeated, UK.
    The opening of the Eastern front against the Russians is, as I said, what undid the Germans. US participation in Europe only served as a catalyst – that is, it sped things up a few years.
    The Russian problem (which had plagued German war planners back as far as Clausewitz and von Schlieffen), and Napoleon before them) was its size, and the population potential of the USSR. Nothwithstanding US material support to Russia, her industrial capacity – already set to a command economy, needed no lengthy transition to a war footing beyond retooling output to produce tanks and guns instead of cars and plumbing pipes. Stalin himself had known that Hitler would invade, and signed off on the Poland accord to buy time for him to build up Soviet forces – and that is not to say that he didn’t have designs of his own on invading Germany, or at the very least, securing his portion of Poland as much as he could.
    Considering that the focus of the opening years of WW2 were on armoured (tanks) tactics, German tactics were much more well developed, and Germany entered into WW2 at a par with or only slightly better than Soviet tank design, and significantly inferior to British and French designs. It wasn’t until the Pzkw. 4 and the Tiger series that Germany could claim a technological parity or superiority to Allied designs.
    Moreover, Russia had a surplus of men (compared to Germany and those Teuto-Slavic partisans who preferred Hitler’s brand of tyranny to Stalin’s) it could feed into the maw of battle. Add that against the harsh Russian winter (and the inadequacy of German armour and troops to cope with it) … Russia could play a stalling, defensive war over a very long salient.
    I’d say that w/o US help, Stalingrad may have fallen (at a steep cost, had the Wehrmacht went in for the house-to-house cleansing, or simply firebombed it into non-existence… but Luftwaffe doctrine was not that well developed yet). Yet, Russia would have continued fall back inward, leaving behind partisans and saboteurs to do their dirty deeds. It is likely that Soviet High Command might have transferred to the far east, as at that time, Russia had a neutral status to Japan.
    If Moscow and Stalingrad were lost, then I’d say that a wiser Hitler would have sent out peace feelers to secure the captured lands west of the Volga – and focused his attention on containing the lands he had conquered, given the massive re-supply lines that needed to be maintained.
    So in my opinion – the very best that Germany could have hoped for would be a span from France to “Eastern Commissariat” (European Russia + Belarus + Ukraine + Moldova), along with Nordafrika and Scandinavia, as occupied territories – and not German provinces in their own right.

  367. seekeronos says:

    As for Bruno,
    your (implied?) assertion that the average American would be so cruel as to leave an orphan seems to be… well, I’ll say disingenuous. We do have social programs that would address that (Child Protective Services) and would likely give him as good of a chance of a living with some degree of quality of life.
    Now, if he wasn’t an orphan, we would like to think that his relatives would be able to take him in and provide some degree of care for him, and I wouldn’t be opposed to some measure of (needs/means tested) public assistance on his account.
    As for the old man with incontinence, I’d say he could get a senior citizen discount along with using Medicare to help defray the cost of his adult diaper.

  368. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    ”we would like to think that his relatives would be able to” – of cause!
    Why does this “seems to be… well, I’ll say disingenuous”. This is a page where people discuss why a family in one of the richest countries should not receive help when a 12 years old boy has a brain injury. People who are not used to this kind of horror-country, wonder how evil you really are.
    I was given a definition on the freedom you Americans are so proud about above.
    “The most important freedom you can give another is the freedom from carrying your burdens.”
    And I was not thinking of average Americans.
    I would like to know if the decision were for Curvedbrain and Troll Feeder to make. Would they chose to have a system that:
    1) Picked up the kid or not
    2) Did sugary and medical care to make him able to speak and walk or not
    3) Don’t cure him/her, but take care for the rest of his/her life or not
    And don’t say ”we would like to think that his relatives would be able to” – of cause!
    If the answer is yes to number 1, who should pay for that? I am here thinking that an emergency, car came and picked up this kid. Where should they send the bill?

  369. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno,
    You are still missing the point.
    We are not arguing so much whether the injured child should get assistance. We are arguing that the two college educated parents who have made multiple questionable financial decisions should get taxpayer funded medical insurance instead of having to sacrifice their comforts to pay for it themselves. We are arguing against the institutionalization of irresponsibility and collectivism as national values.
    You can throw up as many hypothetical pathetic situations as you want, but you are missing our point when you do not address the stubborn fact that the Frosts made enough money to afford catastrophic medical insurance before their children’s accidents, but chose instead to buy cars and work part-time at low-paying jobs.
    Frost’s failure appears to be his own fault. He has continued at a low paying business for more than a decade. He had children during this time, but apparently felt no need to adjust his work ethic to align it with his increased responsibilities. No one with any sense should support this type of poor judgement. To make support of this type of fundamental failure of responsibility the ethos of the land is a large step down the road to national suicide.
    I and many others have chosen instead to limit our purchases, work 12 hours per day, save our money, and pay our own freight, including medical insurance.
    It is fundamentally unjust that people such as the Frosts, who have the available resources, get to goof off and be simply given what I have to work for. It is fundamentally unjust for me to be forced to pay for his foolishness.
    Now, for the umpteenth time, answer the damn question: why should I be required to support my neighbors foolish financial habits? Why should I not have the liberty to let him fail?

  370. Supergovernment Socialisto Teat Chappers says:

    This is for Bruno:
    In a way, I am saddened to see some of my distant co-ethnics (I have a trace of Norwegian ancestry from a 4-generation ancestor who immmigrated as very young lady in the 1890s) as well as my primarily German-English- Irish-Scots background. All of which are kindred nations of Northern Europe after a fashion.
    So, when I see the results of some of the socialist policies and “multi-culturist/humanist” philosophies that help fuel them, I must wonder for how long shall Northern Europe — by this, mostly I mean Scandinavia: home of the most fearsome warriors who ever put sails to sea? How did the ancient drakkar that once laid terror to the coasts of Anglia and Danmark and Normandy now fall silent, only to wither before the onslaught of a barbarians from a lesser and baser culture as Islam?
    Suffer me this bit of foolishness, that the Christendom founded upon a love for its neighbours pity those who have no recourse, but also thouse who would have a recourse to supply their needs?
    Are those ancients like Harald Blåtann (Bluetooth) or Harald Hardråde, or Knut den mektige … are they truly of one and the same blood with those sons and daughters of Vikings who now are but the softest of prey for Muslim hordes looking to work their destroy the young men and do their most foul depredations upon the fair, un-covered heads of flaxen hair borne by the maidens of Norway, Sweden and Danmark?
    Take a look at some of these links from your countrymen and judge for yourself whether or not your nation’s policies may yet be sowing certain seeds that may reap a whirlwind:
    http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/03/all-arabic-preschool-classes-in.html
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016082.php

  371. Supergovernment Socialisto Teat Chappers says:

    EDIT: the first line of my post above should read:
    In a way, I am saddened to see some of my distant co-ethnics (insert) < > … (I have a trace of Norwegian ancestry from a 4-generation ancestor who immmigrated as very young lady in the 1890s) as well as my primarily German-English- Irish-Scots background. All of which are kindred nations of Northern Europe after a fashion.
    Continued as above, &tc.

  372. datadave says:

    troll f. : you sound like the biggest victim here. Why work your butt off supporting a corrupt regime where the “oligarchs” pay little or nothing for health care and you’re paying ‘through the nose’ to benefit those who own “health insurance”….(I use quotations meaning that the phoney, fear mongering salesmen trying to tell you that you’re getting what you paid for….Health, isn’t “health insurance” it’s just a way to guarantee the very well off in our society: the Sickness Industry bankrupt us while they line their pockets with our hard-earned income.
    Back to why S-chip is good and private health insurance is bad: The money saved by middle class people like the Frosts (and you or me) by Not feeding the Health Extortion Industry) is spent or saved by us…those bettering the economy.
    The Frosts might have become extremely impoverished if they hadn’t the S-chip program. Now, tell me how’d that benefit society?
    The same argument holds for Unemployment Insurance: That it benefits society by letting laid off workers time to look for an equivalent job rather than desperately taking a much lower paid job…and reducing social good all around …
    Now, I guess you’d like to do away with Unemployment Insurance too?
    This is another reason Bruno’s society is so much more secure and happy than the lot of the lower middle class in America. We’ve become more anxious and overweight and depressed in comparison to the Europeans. I’ve met quite a few on vacation in the US and told me the same thing: “Americans are much more anxious than us and worry about money all the time.”
    12 hours a day? really, and you waste time here…please take a nap and try to find an easier life.
    seekronos….now don’t desparage the Russians (Soviets). They took on Three/Quarters of the Russian Army leaving the remaining for the other Allies. But then our army air corps and English airman did a lot to limit German production. The Russians were poorly led and suffered the most casualties…but still essentially destroyed the German army. We supplied trucks and steel and alum. to the Russians but they designed and built the best tanks and some of best planes of the time and matched the Germans in quality towards the end. We owe them as England and USA alone probably would have folded w/o Soviet’s taking the bulk of the fighting. There were many Americans and English sympathetic with the Nazis and if our casualties (or Britain’s ) approached the percentage of Russia’s we’d probably plea for conditions. But then Hitler was a madman…he’s taking on Russia when Stalin was willing to passively let Hitler mess with the West….was very stupid.
    also to whomever: The Confederates started the Civil War. The fact that Southerners accuse the North of starting shows what a bunch of Bible-thumping indoctrinated conformists they are. Secession? Fort Sumter? Battle of BullRun 1 (attempt to invade the North) and before then “Bloody Kansas”…were all proof of Southern Aggression against the North, not the other way around.

  373. WOW says:

    WOW you are such an ass…

  374. Troll Feeder says:

    datadave 2007-10-15 19:38
    No offense taken or intended, but I am not a victim.
    Health insurance is not a boondoggle, nor was I snookered by salesmen. I bought what I thought I needed to prepare for potential negative events. At this point, I have paid maybe $52,000 in premiums over 13 years for myself and my family both in direct cost to me and indirect cost as a reduction in wages compensating for my employer’s contribution. I recovered it all and then some with the $200,000, eight week hospital odyssey surrounding the premature birth of my first son. My direct cost for that whole production was $2,500. I almost single handedly caused the small bump in rates my company saw the next year with that one.
    My insurance policy is excellent. Cadillac, even. It costs me less than $500 per month for my family. My copay is $20, and my drug copay is $5 to $10 depending. It is a PPO, and I have almost no restrictions on whom I may see for services. My company also offers a reduced premium plan with the same service that differs only in copay, deductible, and break point.
    Or I could get a private catastrophic coverage PPO plan from somebody like einsurance.com for my whole family for less than $200 per month, last time I checked.
    I pinch pennies and work long days because doing so makes the money required to get my kids the best start I can give them, and it will get me retired and financially independent before I reach sixty. I can go as far as my abilities and willpower will take me; if I fail at one enterprise, I can get back up again and work at succeeding at another.
    I would not have it any other way.
    The world owes me nothing. My government owes me civic and national defense and staying the h3ll out of my business. My countrymen owe me only civility.
    I am happy and hearty and most pleased that I am a citizen of what I, with eyes full open, consider the best country in the world.

  375. curvedbrain says:

    “We are not arguing so much whether the injured child should get assistance. We are arguing that the two college educated parents who have made multiple questionable financial decisions should get taxpayer funded medical insurance instead of having to sacrifice their comforts to pay for it themselves”
    Amen. Predictably, Bruno has failed to respond where he has been nailed to the wall, so he dishonestly creates strawmen to avoid dealing with the real issues.

  376. curvedbrain says:

    On the WWII discussion, seeker gives a classy response.. but US convoys were the lifeline which held the UK together at that time. The UK probably would have fallen without our support.. And without US industrial supply, including fuel refining output and equipment, the Soviets would have been decimated (my opinion from what what I’ve read). Soviet tanks (t-34s) were far better than our Shermans, but Soviet industrial capacity was too hamstrung, and without aviation and other fuel, they would have been sitting ducks. The Shermans, although far inferior to the Soviet T-34s or German King tigers, nonetheless were invaluable to the Soviets in taking on German ground troops which didn’t have tank escorts… and US-built trucks, “deuce and a half” and others, gave the Soviets critical speed and mobility to fight a German enemy who relied on its mobility in military success… as rapid mobilization against numerically superior firepower was a German hallmark in WWII. Coordinated Soviet air counter attacks relied almost entirely on US supplied fuel. Without US fuel, the Lutwaffe would have ruled the russian skies unchallenged
    But unlike the Frosts, the Soviets at the time lacked the comforts of 3 SUVs per family and large homes, and their tough upbringing, with US help, was almost certainly a big reason they were able to out-gut the German forces.
    Regarding Norway, it’s worth repeating that Norway, which allegedly did “all it could”, surrendered in less than 2 months to the Nazis with their king fleeing the country with his money. Unlike the Russians, who really did fight tooth and nail to do “all they could” to fight off German invaders, the Norwegians rolled over on their back quickly. Judging from Bruno’s flawed recital of history, sounds like Norwegians haven’t come to terms with that rather shameful chapter of their history. Google the origin of the word “Quisling” to learn even more.

  377. Pierson W. W. Dilliwithers-Mathers III, Major, Confederate States Army (Retired) says:

    Pffash! Such lies and obfuscations from this damnyankee scallawag “datadave”!!
    I will tell you, that y’all damnyankees started the War of Damnyankee Agression by not having lawfully evacuated your soldiers when we lawfully declared our withdrawal from the Damnyankee States of America.
    Fort Sumter was on the Sovereign Territory of the great state of South Caroliney. Indeed, I can tell you as a matter of fact, because I saw it with my own to eyes, that the right honouroble P.G.T. Beauregard himself (may God rest his soul) issued numerous requests for the commander at Ft. Sumter to surrender what was sovereign and Confederate territory.
    As for Bull Run, well, sonny… that there is what y’all danmyankees call the “breaks”, because one good feint into an enemy’s territory deserves another. A decent read of Clausewitz might tell you that.
    Bloody Kansas? Well, that was before the Secession, I’ll admit. But the way we saw it, we wanted to be able to settle our folk over there with our nigras, and we didn’t want some of y’all who had a mind to want to take our nigras away from getting a foothold in what would eventually become Kansas state. But, y’all damnyankees did no better with your pet terrorist, John Brown, so I’m calling it a wash.

  378. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Troll Feeder has “chosen instead to limit our purchases, work 12 hours per day, save our money, and pay our own freight, including medical insurance.”
    Do many people in the “land of the free” live like that. Do you feel you are using your right to succeed or fail – by working 12 hours a day for your whole life?
    Didn’t you say “Incredibly ignorant of you to refer to “American” slavery” – above.
    What do you call it when people have to work 12 hours a day to have the basic need of humans – security. I see you later brag about your good insurance. Mine are better!
    Do you look at children like burden in the “land of the free”? I am here again looking at you definition of freedom. “The most important freedom you can give another is the freedom from carrying your burdens.”
    Toll Feeder, of cause your own children are a burden to you. You probably do not even know them – having to work 12 hours a day to pay for your, “Cadillac” insurance.
    But, Toll Feeder, other American kids in need, do you look at them as a burden to?
    Toll Feeder, maybe you should try another country. You would not have to work as much because you were afraid of what might happen. Get to know you kids. Have the freedom to work if you wanted. And probably earn a lot more – if you are an average American. You, believe “with eyes full open, … the best country in the world” is the US.
    Well, I have lived in Norway, England and the US. Between them you are third. On what do you base your believe. Is it the freedom of NOT helping injured kids? And your freedom of judging their parent. God bless America!
    I agree, even though you would have the freedom to say what you are saying in both England and Norway. Everybody here would think you were scum. It wouldn’t even help you that your grandfather helped ours in WWII. You would be seen as scum anyway.
    I hope you, Toll Feeder, do not have a workplace where you could set other people in risk of danger, and that you do not drive to and from work. You probably lack sleep, and rest working average of 12 hours a day. Have you read that part in your car insurance papers? I do not believe you are covered. Or would you lie – and say you had enough sleep if something happened. Typical scum, lying, and steal the money of the others paying their insurance and not using it.
    Toll Feeder, as you don’t answer I am guessing that the answer to the above are no to al three.
    ———–b
    I would like to know if the decision were for Curvedbrain and Troll Feeder to make. Would they chose to have a system that:
    1) Picked up the kid or not
    2) Did sugary and medical care to make him able to speak and walk or not
    3) Don’t cure him/her, but take care for the rest of his/her life or not

    If the answer is yes to number 1, who should pay for that? I am here thinking that an emergency, car came and picked up this kid. Where should they send the bill?
    ———b
    If you, on the other hand, believe that an imaginary kid with a brain damage in some cases should be entitled to help from someone else then his parents, if they for some reason did not managed to do enough themselves, who should decide if the parents were in sufficient need for getting help?
    Should we get together some random lynch-gang (that your History are filled with), and make some false accusation and provide the address for this family. Then we could se if they helped them or not? (Is this a description of an ideal society?)
    Or is it better to have some sort of rules and professionalism to decide?

  379. Supergovernment Socialisto Teat Chappers says:

    For what it’s worth, this is about as long a thread as I’ve ever seen on RWV. Too bad it’s only two more posts from sinking into non-first page obscurity. Huzzah for 373 posts!

  380. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    “I have paid maybe $52,000 in premiums over 13 years … I recovered it all and then some with the $200,000… My direct cost for that whole production was $2,500 . I almost single handedly caused the small bump in rates my company saw the next year with that one.”
    Wow, Toll Feeder, you won! You are a winner!
    You like the – “what IF”. So here is another one for you.
    What if you were unlucky instead? One day you had been working even more than 12 hours the day before, but you still after a few hours wanted to drive to work early. You did not notice that your son got behind the car. And he or he got brain injured.
    Your free fellow American friends off cause told the insurance company how tired you had told them you were – since you were working so late and bragging about FDR all night on the internet. In stead of the “$200,000, eight week hospital odyssey” we were talking of about 5 months ++.
    What then, Mr. Toll Feeder? Would you ask your father to sell his old car? “Be his burden?”
    Here in Norway your son would be taken care of, nobody would feel it as a burden. We would all be happy for your son, you and your father. And for why should your father have to sell his car because of this? Shouldn’t he enjoy the freedom of driving around in his favourite car?
    And if you were so sleepy you fell asleep in the car. Someone would pick up your son for you. They have to by law, but would do it out of their own good.

  381. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno,
    Dude, you sure do like your hypotheticals.
    I’m proud that I work to pay my own way. You are proud that you don’t.
    I did not post my insurance information to brag (?!), I posted it to show that the American private insurance system does work. My outcome was great. Having seen what it can do for me, I will never willingly be without catastrophic health insurance.
    Had it been necessary, my father would have sold his car to help my son. Unlike you, my family are not a simpering bunch of leeches. Because of my preparation, however, my father was not required to do so.
    You know nothing about my family life, but you not surprisingly have posted your suppositions as thought they were fact.
    I haven’t said word one about FDR. Maybe that was you.
    Nor did I say “Incredibly ignorant of you to refer to “American” slavery”. Maybe that was someone else.
    You haven’t addressed the main question of the need for self-reliance, nor have you acknowledged any of the many factual errors you have made. Based on your performance here, you are sloppy and dishonest and a parasite on your fellow humans.

  382. Supergovernment Socialisto Teat Chappers says:

    Ah, but what if a SPACE ALIEN from Zeta Reticuli came and landed his UFO on top of the car?
    Surely the great Mother Governmnet and her socialistic teat would drip so much money and loving care over both the SPACE ALIEN and the poor sugary brain damaged boy, no?

  383. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    “I’m proud that I work to pay my own way. You are proud that you don’t.”
    I do pay my own way, but unlike you my family have not gained form paying in our part (insurance) to other people in need. That, however, does not mean that we are better than you in any way – just luckier.
    And you are right I am proud. We are rich both in an American and a Norwegian sense. And I am self-made. As most people in Norway, we do not have to relay on our dad or anyone else. If we do well in school we compete on an equal basis. This way people like Bush are kept out of our best schools! And people with better qualities get the place.
    So we are blessed with a system where we pay for our self, but would be glad to help pay for some kid in need. For example yours if you moved to Norway, and I can promise you nobody would hold it against you that you needed help.
    It is so many things about other issues here, but if there is anything regarding the Graeme Frost or some of those issues please rephrase them when you answer the very interesting question above:
    In
    Posted by: Bruno Laksevaag | Tuesday, October 16, 2007 at 09:54 AM
    And
    Posted by: Bruno Laksevaag | Monday, October 15, 2007 at 04:10 PM
    They are as you see highly relevant fore this issue.

  384. Supergovernment Socialisto Teat Chappers says:

    Alas, how can I be sure that I shall be safe in Norway if I travel or maybe immigrate there and a SPACE ALIEN lands on top of my car, and my poor child’s head is smashed and he becomes unable to care for himself?
    Or worse, if I get attacked by an angry young muslim boy with a knife?
    Will I be protected by a great mama Government’s skirt?

  385. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno 2007-10-16 11:22
    “I do pay my own way, but unlike you my family have not gained form paying in our part (insurance) to other people in need.”
    You do not pay your own way. You confiscate your fellow countrymen’s resources to pay your medical bills. Your medical bills are not a national issue such as police, fire, military, or roads; they are a personal issue such as food, clothing, and shelter. Any demand from you that others pay for your personal needs is a demand that they be your slaves.
    No idea what the second part of your sentence is supposed to mean.
    None of your posts have been relevant. You have raised questions about WW2 and FDR and Republicans as Nazis and on and on. You have yet to even address the one, single question that my side has been asking from the start. Why should we be forced to pay the medical insurance premiums for a family with means making $45,000 working part time with cars and a home and a business property?
    Why shouldn’t someone with that level of resources have to sacrifice some of his own comforts to pay his own way? By what right does he obtain my servitude?
    The question is not and has never been whether an injured indigent child should receive medical care. THE FROSTS WERE NOT INDIGENT; THEY WERE IRRESPONSIBLE. Your question is a deceptive, disingenuous, distraction from the real question at issue, which I have posed yet again above.
    No more answers for you until you finally at long last respond to our one simple question.

  386. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    For that alien or religious fanatic? What can I say.
    You cold bring your gun. The gun laws are very liberal in Norway. The only country that has more guns per citizen is the US. The only difference is that we do hardly ever shot each other.
    I have four guns. But don’t lets continue on this alien or religious fanatic, lets continue on the issue.
    What would you “Supergovernment Socialisto Teat Chappers” answer to the questions Toll Feeder doesn’t dare to answer?
    In
    Posted by: Bruno Laksevaag | Tuesday, October 16, 2007 at 09:54 AM
    And
    Posted by: Bruno Laksevaag | Monday, October 15, 2007 at 04:10 PM

  387. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Ok.
    I will answer. To the “single question that my side has been asking from the start.” But I am only on my own side, don’t you dare to drag me into any side-conspiracy :-)
    I am an individualist and proud to the bones!
    “Why should we be forced to pay the medical insurance premiums for a family with means making $45,000 working part time with cars and a home and a business property?”
    First, it is not the boys fault, and he is a free individual in the land of the free. Good bless America! Who cold deny this kid anything? Who has the right to do so?
    Second, in my view they are poor. You are talking about $45.000 like we were tolling about $45.000.000. We have already established that average people in the US get a lot less paid, but still. Do you think it is so much?
    Third, you argue that they should have other jobs. Why, shouldn’t they be free not to?
    Fort, you drag in their father. Why? Is there a law in the US that he has to do something? Is he not free to do what he wants? Why don’t you sell your car and give to them?
    Fifth, I do not believe a car or some other job would help these people a great deal. Both my father and mother work in a hospitals. My father is a M.D. and mothers do plastic surgery. I have heard that the prices in the US are even higher than in Norway. I, therefore, believe that the cost of 5 months of hospital time with several brain surgeries and after that a long regular treatment. Is higher than these people could afford all together. But if they had to and managed I believe it would ruin the family, and make these kids unfree. We wouldn’t want that would we? (see*)
    Sixth, if the only thing you want to do is to punish this family for being uninsured. Make it compulsory by law, and make a thought through punishment for it. If it includes taking away grandfathers nice cars, I could not care less. But I would think it was strange.
    Seventh, from this discussion I believe you are more likely to meet aliens or religious fanatic in the US than in Norway.
    Eight, It is always easy to be wise in retro perspective, and I am sure they even if they could not afford insurance would have had it if they knew. Much like you probably by being able to know the future if you the imaginary question about how you were driving when tired and had an accident. Then, you will say you do not drive when you are tired, am I right?
    Now your turn toll feeder. Answer mine:
    Posted by: Bruno Laksevaag | Tuesday, October 16, 2007 at 09:54 AM
    And
    Posted by: Bruno Laksevaag | Tuesday, October 16, 2007 at 07:24 AM
    And
    Please, add a comment about my Bush remark, I think it was very funny. I know it does not belong here. But still, please.
    *) I do not think anyone would benefit from that. The family would probably not manage to contribute in an economical beneficial manner for the United Stats of America. Good bless you! Who benefit when someone are made loosers. You? The US? Your systems really makes a lot of loosers, you se them in the streets everywhere in the US? When they ask me I always tell them “no I am not giving you a dime. I am not to blame for this American system and will not sponsor it.” I have honestly never ever given a dime to an American beggar! And I am proud of that.

  388. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Troll Feeder.
    “You confiscate your fellow countrymen’s resources to pay your medical bills. Your medical bills are not a national issue such as police, fire, military, or roads; they are a personal issue such as food, clothing, and shelter. Any demand from you that others pay for your personal needs is a demand that they be your slaves.”
    Unlike you lucky man, I think I pay more than I have received. But, also unlike you, I am not as sad for having helped fellow citizens, as you are. You know if you have paid any tax you have actually unwillingly help this 12-year-old boy. Does it feel that bad? Do you feel like a slave – I bet the noble peas prize winner Martin Luther King feel sorry for your enforce triadic life. Or did you shoot him to?
    I will not ask you to answer yet. You should probably get some sleep. Your insurance company could find out that you lack sleep by reading here you know.
    Nice name by the way, Troll. I will add some info below. Its juts info – No questions. So please do answer my questions above. This is just for having something to read for all the others, while they are waiting for your answers.
    As many American words it is from Norwegian. The same is York, Threshold, Door and many many more. You know, we had or time like you have now being a powerful country. Enjoy and make a civilised community for when times gets worse. The Vikings had laws for not carrying weapons. I believe, the US has past the top. Now with the dollar, interest rate, oil price, problems controlling Irak, Turky, unpopularity all around the world, torture, election system, Country dept, Katrina, Hardly any American oil left, corruption, Bush and his people etc. etc. It’s a good thing you have a lot of recourses.

  389. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno 2007-10-16 14:23
    You are a collectivist.
    One. This is not about the kid. I understand that English is not your first language, but at this point you have to be purposely ignoring this. Also, I have the right to deny him my stuff.
    Two. They are not too poor to afford insurance. They chose to spend their money on other things. I all fairness to them, however, it is the state that decided to give them taxpayer funded insurance. They now agitate that the state should give taxpayer funded insurance to even more well of people. I do not believe that even they should be getting it. $45,000 per year is a lot of money. Catastrophic insurance coverage for a family was less than $2,400 per year last time I checked. This guy worked part time at a no prospects job for over a decade and apparently never considered that he should work harder rather than leech off his neighbors for insurance.
    This is as close as you ever come to addressing this question.
    Three. This is the center of the question, and you simply pass it back to me. They can be free of a second job so long as they do not demand more than their first job affords them. I SHOULD NOT BE PAYING THEIR BILLS. That is their job. They should expend their own efforts and resources to obtain what they want instead of STEALING mine.
    Four. You began the discussion of fathers. Go argue with yourself.
    Five. You have to buy insurance BEFORE you get into an accident. That is kind of the point. Had they bought a low dollar policy prior to the accident, then they would have been covered. If they don’t have the income to pay for the medical care or insurance that they want, then they should cut back on their other expenditures, find better paying work, or sell off some of their assets. It is called personal responsibility.
    Six. Begging the question. Them reaping the consequences of their own bad decisions is not me punishing them. Them stealing my money to make up for the consequences of their bad decisions is THEM PUNISHING ME.
    Seven. .
    Eight. Asinine. It is easy to be wise enough to purchase catastrophic medical insurance for your family. Another tendentious question begging about my driving.
    You managed all that without answering the question. By what right does a hardly working, well-educated, well resourced pair of adults deserve the fruits of their countrymen’s labors?
    You argue in support of having us all become a bunch of freeloading, deadbeat pussies. Don’t you already have enough company in Europe?
    Your next post is just a tiresome repeat of you arguing with your own points. I’ll only address one. I am not sad about helping others. I am adamantly opposed to being FORCED to help others. What is it about you that makes you too stupid to understand that? It’s only been said a couple of dozen times, but even you should have caught on by now.

  390. datadave says:

    Bruno. Thanks for trying to educate these trolls. But they’re just too selfish and thickheaded.
    Troll, you are being impolite. And missed every point advocates of ‘socialized’ medicine have been expressing… and besides…you are a “good German” just marching to the Oligarch’s drumbeats. Not even Self Employed… :Lucky you have a skill that got you into one of the few company’s still giving health care benefits. I’ve been Self Employed enough to know the REAL price of health insurance. I Paid Full Freight, You never have!
    Hey, Bruno. He’s a Lemming, you know what that means. He’d rather have an Oligarch skimming off 35 percent of his health care dollar than having a govt. run insurance program that only needs 5 percent for administration costs. That’s why Every Other Industrialized country in the World has Better health care and cheaper health care (as proven by statistics)..
    Good nite, Bruno.

  391. Troll Feeder says:

    datadave 2007-10-16 21:53
    “missed every point advocates of ‘socialized’ medicine have been expressing”
    What points? The best you two clowns have come up with is saying that I am a meanie who doesn’t care about injured kids.
    I have stated over and over that whether a hypothetical injured kid should be helped is not the question at all. The question is whether anyone should be FORCED to subsidize the kid’s capable-but-lazy parent’s insurance premiums. It’s not about who pays to fix the broken kid, it’s about who pays to guard against the risk that the kid might get broken.
    You people can’t argue worth a damn in part because you can’t even understand the basis of the argument.

  392. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Sa you said Troll. “You have to buy insurance BEFORE you get into an accident.”
    You just have to put it into a system.
    Thanks Troll. Then we agree! All this and we are really on the same side you and me?

  393. Troll Feeder says:

    Bruno, you are a thief, an idiot, a liar, and a sissy.
    I pay for my own insurance. You demand that I pay for yours, too. Get bent.

  394. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Have you heard of these:
    ===Children’s Civil Rights===
    EVERY child and young person under 18 has rights and responsibilities. They’re protected by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. It’s been signed by every country in the world, except the USA and Somalia ( http://www.unicef.org.uk/youthvoice/pdfs/uncrc.pdf ). Article 6 (Survival and development): Children have the right to live. Governments should ensure that children survive and develop healthily.http://www.unicef.org/crc/files/Rights_overview.pdf
    I was just trying to find who were on “your side” as you mentioned. Odd union the US and their Somalian Muslim friends – shall we cal it the union of child abuse I presume?

  395. Troll Feeder says:

    Medicaid, SSI, county property taxes for hospital districts, revocation of parental rights for child abuse and abandonment, countless private charities.
    We already pay to provide for the indigent. You are dissembling and disingenuous. Certainly ignorant, but you are a liar by commission and omission as well.
    US citizens generally (although not in the case of the Frosts) do not pay the bills of the non-indigent because it undermines self-reliance, a value critical to our success as a nation and critical to survival in this fallen world.
    You socialists and communists promote dependency and pussification, and you demonize success. Generally, I think, out of envy, but also because playing to the envy of others is a politically powerful tactic.
    I like dogs; Hitler supposedly liked dogs. This guarantees alignment between us in other areas precisely as much as the US and Somalia are guaranteed alignment in other areas due to their individual decisions to not sign the UN document you reference. Yet another stupid and sophistical argument from you, a thoroughly sophistical and stupid person.
    The United Nations is not my government. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and laws established under the Declaration are my government.

  396. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Sure you are not angry? Sounds a bit.

  397. Korla Pundit says:

    > It’s been signed by every country in the world, except the USA and Somalia
    The USA because it’s a bunch of Commie crap.
    Somallia because the pen we sent them was used to poke out a peasant’s eyes, and it won’t write no more.

  398. Bruno Laksevaag says:

    Korla Pundit, you and yours probably said the same in 1963? “bunch of Commie crap”
    Hwy is it that:
    In the United States of America, Child healthcare is not usually viewed as a civil rights issue. If child healthcare is discussed as a matter of rights at all, it is usually framed as a contest of parents’ rights to choose and their freedom. Even the decision not to send your children to the doctor or not pay for their insurance is worth fighting for. The people fighting for this freedom are of course the people who do not have problems giving their children the health care they need and the sufficient insurance.
    Has America been caught up in the race-issues to long? So that only these discriminating issues like gender equality, sexual harassment, gay-marriage, and age-discrimination, reach up to be treated as Civil (or Human) Right issues.
    Why don’t you treat your American children’s right of healthcare as a civil rights issue?
    In JFK’s Civil Rights Address in 1963 he said “. . . In short, every American ought to have the right to be treated as he would wish to be treated, as one would wish his children to be treated. But this is not the case. . . .” (http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkcivilrights.htm)
    How should a child in America be treated? Is it only the parent’s decision? Don’t the American nation take responsibility for their most vulnerable that their future depend on?
    As I understand it is the American parents right to not give their children health insurance – if they can not afford it or do not want to. It is also the insurance company’s right to not let a child get insured if they believe the insurance is not economically beneficial for them. Is this the civil right you are fighting for? THE FREEDOM OF TREATING YOUR UNLUCKY CHILDREN BAD?
    God bless America – The land of the free!

  399. Korla Pundit says:

    As I said: Commie Crap.