Europe’s winter set to be the “coldest in 300 years”

By
December 29, 2010

– Jennifer of Cubachi

Europe is set to have their worst winter in 300 years, according to several UK meteorologists.

The global warming excuse isn't cutting it anymore.

By the way, where is Al Gore to explain all this? Hiding from the truth?



AdSense 300×250
NewsMax Trending Now
Comments:
  1. Ragspierre says:

    “…where is Al Gore…”
    Excellent question!!!
    My co-blogger, swede, has a wonderful piece on that!
    http://hindenblog1.blogspot.com/2010/12/burn-content-warning-blood-and-gore.html
    Another great question; why isn’t Gore in prison?

  2. Drago says:

    Rags: “Another great question; why isn’t Gore in prison?”
    Because Gore didn’t break any laws.
    What’s sad is the “legality” of the fraud perpetrated and being perpetrated on the public by the Global Warming oops Climate Change phonies.
    Remember, it was just a few years ago that these morons with their “make believe” statistical models were telling us that winters without snow was on the way.
    Of course, other morons were telling us that more snow was on the way.
    And of course, other morons were telling us there hadn’t been much change and would’nt be much change since the “change” was somehow being “hidden”.
    Clearly, these morons were “smart enough” to try and create a non-falsifiable religion within which they could make themselves rich and secure in their academic unicorn-factories.

  3. Ragspierre says:

    “Because Gore didn’t break any laws.”
    That really has NOT been determined. Read the posted piece. It really is worth your time.
    If Martha Stewart could trip over securities law, you wanna bet that Gore could not be proven to have violated SEVERAL criminal statutes?

  4. Drago says:

    Rags: “That really has NOT been determined. Read the posted piece. It really is worth your time.”
    I understand the point of the article as well as your point.
    I just don’t ever see a prosecution occurring. Regardless of merit.
    Call me cynical.

  5. Ragspierre says:

    “I just don’t ever see a prosecution occurring. Regardless of merit.
    Call me cynical.”
    Yeah, well…there’s THAT…!!!
    But Gore comes out this an IMMENSE profiteer…having produced…
    zip.
    As I noted, Madoff at least made SOMEBODY rich…
    http://hindenblog1.blogspot.com/2010/12/crash-just-thought-question.html

  6. time to rise up says:

    Al Gore’s enjoying the money, the $1b+ that he got from the suckers who fell for his schtick, and he’s still laughing all the way to the bank!

  7. pagar says:

    “http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2010/12/green-disaster-new-condensing-boilers-cant-take-the-cold-thousands-freeze-up-in-uk/#comments
    “British Gas is understood to have had 60,000 call-outs in Yorkshire alone. And the cost to call out a plumber? It can be between £200 to £300 on a bank holiday. And don’t forget about VAT”
    Someone should be in jail over this.

  8. Ragspierre says:

    Great story about the wind turbines that have to be electrically heated to keep from freezing up and being ripped apart by the wind.
    http://xmmlbchat.blogspot.com/2010/12/wind-turbines-have-to-be-heated-or-they_28.html
    Net contribution to the British grid…1.6% according to the piece.
    Green power…as in sickly green.

  9. salvage says:

    Dum dums,
    Things that are not supposed to be melting are melting quicker and quicker. It doesn’t matter that it’s colder someplace else that’s usually not that cold, overall things are getting warmer.
    This is a fact, like evolution it’s the details where things get fuzzy such as cause and effect. The only way we’ll know for sure is if we keep on investigating.
    I know to the wingnut brain this makes very little sense but fortunately the wingnut brain is a minority.

  10. Ragspierre says:

    sewage…
    wrong.
    As
    usual.
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/126560/americans-global-warming-concerns-continue-drop.aspx
    Part of the problem is selling people with common sense the snake-oil that warming is causing record “COLDING”. See?
    http://hindenblog1.blogspot.com/2010/12/burn-anthropomorphic-global-staythesame.html

  11. Susie Q says:

    Poor widdle salvage…I will admit that there is climate change. There has been since, well, the beginning of this planet. That is, for sure, a scientific fact. No doubt about it, but that little global warming problem just isn’t.
    The one thing that is constant in this world is change.
    Oh, and that wingnut minority you speak of, isn’t either. It’s your little moonbat population that is a minority.

  12. unseen says:

    the Sun jhas over the last couple of years gone through one of the deepest solar minioms ever recorded…..what i find amazing is the “smart” people like savage can not put this event together with the record cold.

  13. Comanche Voter says:

    I’d leave Al Gore out in the snow in a field outside a pig farm near Prague playing with his chakras in the middle of a January blizzard for about a week. Let God decide whether AlBore AlTheTime violated any laws. If he’s alive at the end of the week, well, he’s innocent.

  14. Ragspierre says:

    Damn, why would you do that to all those nice Polish pigs…!?!?!?
    Man/bear/pig might be happy as a man/bear/pig in slop!

  15. Drago says:

    salvage: “Dum dums, ”
    LOL!!!
    This from the single most ignorant poster on these boards!!
    Hey salvage, do tell us all about your scientific/engineering/mathematics training and expertise!!
    We’d all loooooove to see it!!!
    What a buffoon!!!
    LOL!
    Hey, while you’re at it salvage, why don’t you provide a link to the raw data that East Anglia used for their statistical models which was the basis for all other statistical models that “proved” global warming!
    Go ahead. We’ll wait.
    Oh, just for your benefit, (since you won’t be able to provide such a link), I’ll provide a link which explains why!
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6936328.ece
    snip: In a statement on its website, the CRU said: “We do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (quality controlled and homogenised) data.”
    “only the value-added (quality controlled and homogenised) data.”
    LOL!!
    Translation: we got the raw data, and we “scrubbed it” to make it “value-added”, but no one can judge the extent of our manipulation because WE LOST THE ORIGINAL RAW DATA!!!
    You. Can’t. Make. This. Stuff. Up!!!
    LOL!!
    Go ahead salvage, tell us again how “dumb” we are!
    What a moron!!
    LOL!

  16. Drago says:

    Oh, it gets alot better!!!
    from the same link from above:
    snip: “The CRU is the world’s leading centre for reconstructing past climate and temperatures. Climate change sceptics have long been keen to examine exactly how its data were compiled. That is now impossible.”
    “That is now impossible.”
    salvage = moron.
    LOL!!!

  17. Ragspierre says:

    Thanks to Mook…
    sewage (just another deluded leftist fool with nothing of substance to add [tm]).
    I have adopted it, and recommend it to all.

  18. scr_north says:

    “The only way we’ll know for sure is if we keep on investigating”
    – Salvage –
    I agree. Only this time the investigation should be honest, done by scientists who are real experts in their fields without using forged and deliberatly corrupted data. People whose income and future are not dependent on making a finding for one side or the other.
    In regards to whether Al Gore should be in jail for his part in what could be the biggest fraud in history, beats me, that’s for a jury to decide. I will say that it may be worth some investigation on where the green money Gore and the select few made came from. A civil suit (or a few thousand of them) may be the only recourse to recover money that may have been fraudulently obtained Al and his pals. It sure would be nice to see Al on the stand under oath though.

  19. Ragspierre says:

    “Climate change” is a tautology.
    We know it happens.
    We know that dinosaurs used to range on Alaska’s North Slope…when that was tectonically CLOSER to the North Pole. The flora fossils tell us that the environment was quite temperate.
    We also know that we have flourished over an unusually long temperate period.
    Warmer is better, as far as humans are concerned.
    The issue is whether we CAN alter…much less ARE altering…the entire climate.

  20. barfo says:

    I realize it will shock the rational righties who believe Jesus and his followers rode around on dinosaurs, but…
    Extreme winters like Europe is experiencing is exactly what Global Climate Change predicts.

  21. Ragspierre says:

    Support, barfo.
    I can put up several citations that say just the opposite.
    Idiot.

  22. Drago says:

    barfo the moron: “Extreme winters like Europe is experiencing is exactly what Global Climate Change predicts.”
    Hilarious!!
    First of all, what you lefties are claiming is Anthropocentric Climate Change: manmade responsibility for climate change. So make sure you use language more carefully lefty boy!!!
    And that’s the point barfo!!
    Anthropocentric climate change extremists like you have predicted “Every possible scenario” as “proof” of Global Climate Change.
    You have created a non-falsifiable religion!
    Wow.
    How very very very “scientific” of you!!
    LOL!
    But go ahead. I’m sure your “vast knowledge” of the underlying science disciplines necessary for understanding of Climate Change is more than sufficient to properly illuminate your “reasoned opinion” on the matter.
    Not. LOL!

  23. Drago says:

    Rags: “I can put up several citations that say just the opposite.”
    Exactly.
    In fact, we can find citations that say ANY scenario, even contradictory ones, are proof of Anthropocentric climate change!!!
    Thats the point.
    What’s even more hilarious is that the left is always pointing out that any specific impact felt in specific regions is always “proof” of their theories, but any contradictory impacts felt in specific regions cannot be used to undermine ACC theory since “local weather is not global climate”!!
    Equally hilarious is the tactic of asserting that we should only listen to scientific experts on the matter of ACC, yet the left is full of pontificating non-scientific morons who other lefties lecture us to pay attention to. LOL!
    Most hilarious is how the left has used “peer reviewed” scientists as the baseline for establishing “legitimacy” to comment on this subject and then we find out that these little Stalinists have, naturally, conspired to ensure that contradictory scientific theories get no real “peer-review”. What a swell little tautology they’ve created!!
    LOL!
    The jig is up, and these morons like barfo and salvage are running around with their little lefty pacifiers screaming about all those “dum dum’s” on the right!
    You can’t make this stuff up.
    It’s reminiscent of how obambi lectured us during the campaign not to be like those Americans who are so haven’t learned a second language….even though neither he nor anyone is his family speaks a second language!!
    Beyond parody!!

  24. Drago says:

    barfo, this one is for you!! LOL!!
    From March, 2000 (thats roughly 10.5 years ago for you barfo:
    “Snowfalls are now just a thing of the Past”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html
    a little salvage-y snip: “However, the warming is so far manifesting itself more in winters which are less cold than in much hotter summers. According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia,within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”.
    “Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he said.”
    Hmmmmm, another of those Univ of East Anglia CRU geniuses!!!
    Hey barfo, why don’t you tell this idiot David Viner why he is wrong.
    But be very very very careful.
    After all, he is a peer-reviewed super-scientist who gets lots and lots of funding from socialists like you!!
    So he must be right, right?
    LOL!
    This is really, really too easy.

  25. Drago says:

    barfo: “Extreme winters like Europe is experiencing is exactly what Global Climate Change predicts.”
    Reality: “”The CRU is the world’s leading centre for reconstructing past climate and temperatures. Climate change sceptics have long been keen to examine exactly how its data were compiled. That is now impossible.”
    LOL!!!

  26. Wally says:

    Barfo is, in a way, right about this one. I’ve been reading that for years — that Europe fears global warming more than anybody because the Gulf Stream will shut off (makes sense from a physics perspective) and freeze it? I’m a global warming skeptic, and Barfo is an arse. But in his defense that IS what the climate scientists have been suggestings.

  27. Tennwriter says:

    Salvage,
    I do like how you point out that the support for Darwinism and AGW are the same. He’s correct, my fellow righties. Except the Darwinists have been at the game of illogic, hoaxes, and political influence far longer than the AGW people.
    One of the first serious scientists (known as ‘father of’ a couple scientific fields) to look at Neanderthal said ‘rickets’.
    Piltdown, Nebraska, Java…frauds
    Hiding information? The guy who discovered Java Man also discovered another skull which did not support his particular version of Evo. So he hid it under his flooring in his house for thirty years….Sounds like East Anglia.
    Up until about forty, or perhaps less, Haeckel’s drawings (from which comes the moderately famous statement… ontologeny recapitulates phylogeny) years ago, Haeckel’s drawings were supported. I remember seeing them as a kid in a textbook, although I think the teach may have brushed past them…..They were known to be a fraud in the late 1800’s.
    So yes, Salvage is quite right. Just as AGW is a pile of snot, so is Darwinism.
    Thanks, Salvage.
    And no, Jesus probably didn’t ride a dinosaur, but what do you think Beowulf and St. George were out killing?

  28. salvage says:

    So much stupid to wade thought… have to meet a client today and make a bright red logo brighter and redder (how do I do that? I don’t know) so I shall just take the stupidest one… fortunately there is one post here that is broken-head above shoulders in the retard rodeo:
    >I do like how you point out that the support for Darwinism and AGW are the same.
    Oh no, an evolution denier? Can I be so lucky?!?
    >He’s correct, my fellow righties. Except the Darwinists have been at the game of illogic, hoaxes, and political influence far longer than the AGW people.
    Yes! Yes I can.
    >One of the first serious scientists (known as ‘father of’ a couple scientific fields) to look at Neanderthal said ‘rickets’.
    Ha! Ha! Yes! There is no other proof of Neanderthal.
    >Piltdown, Nebraska, Java…frauds
    Uh oh, someone has been watching too much Kirk Cameron.
    Yes, there have been frauds, guess who busts them? Science! How do they bust them? By comparing the data from the fraud to the real deal, carbon dating and a whole host of other techniques.
    It’s the same scientific thinking that’s proven climate change / global warming / greenhouse effect and the rest to be a reality. Once again the controversy is cause and effect. It could very well be part of some natural phenomenon or it could be man made but what is most likely is a mix of the two.
    Whatever the case it needs to be understood. Now I know y’all think scientist who acknowledge that reality are part of Liberal SorosIslamofacistStalinistHitlerSecretMulsim cabal who want to destroy America and take away your guns and make you raise your children as gay Mexican socialists (barring forced abortions of course) but actually they’re just nerds obsessed with finding truths that they can publish.
    Wingnuts and most theists aren’t interested in truths however, here’s an example:
    >Hiding information? The guy who discovered Java Man also discovered another skull which did not support his particular version of Evo. So he hid it under his flooring in his house for thirty years….Sounds like East Anglia.
    See what I mean? This wingnut seems to think frauds override the mountains of actual proof, evidence that have accumulated over the last five decades. From fossils to DNA evolution is a fact. Sorry but we weren’t made by your crazy sky god tricked into eating magic apples by a talking snake.
    >Up until about forty, or perhaps less, Haeckel’s drawings
    Are not frauds you clagnut. It’s cute the way theists keep on bringing up the same weak “arguments” that have been debunked again and again but that doesn’t stop them from being repeated. Guess that’s easier than leaning.
    His drawings were and have always been abstractions highlighting the important bits to prove the point. Bit like using a highlighter on a textbook.
    >And no, Jesus probably didn’t ride a dinosaur,
    No, not probably, he didn’t for two important reasons:
    1) The dinosaurs went extinct some 65 million years ago and the closest thing left to a dinosaur was on the North American continent and was a giant bird that would have torn any rider to shreds.
    2) Jesus wasn’t real, at least the one your thinking of, so I doubt he rode anything not even a cross.
    >but what do you think Beowulf and St. George were out killing?
    In Beowulf’s case nothing, he’s about as real as Robin Hood, King Aurthur and Jesus Christ. St. George, I dunno, flagons of ale? Peasants? Frenchmen? Muslims? Jews? Gypsies? Lots of people killed lots of things back then. Oh please tell me you think dragons were real or dinosaurs in disguise, please tell me you’re that stupid and deluded?

  29. Ragspierre says:

    More waste of precious natural resources…power down the drain from sewage (just another deluded leftist fool with nothing of substance to add [tm]).
    Nasty, too.

  30. Ragspierre says:

    “It’s the same scientific thinking that’s proven climate change / global warming / greenhouse effect and the rest to be a reality.”
    Which is one of the most UNSCIENTIFIC statements anybody, anywhere ever made.
    Climate change has happened over the eons.
    Global warming happens every time the sun comes up (and a good thing, too).
    The “greenhouse effect”…tell us about the “greenhouse effect”, sewage. This should be a hooot!!!
    “…and the rest to be reality”. What rest? Whose reality? Yours? The Collective’s?
    Please…!!!

  31. kansas says:

    Salvage says “Things that are not supposed to be melting are melting quicker and quicker. It doesn’t matter that it’s colder someplace else that’s usually not that cold, overall things are getting warmer.”
    Things? Now there’s a real argument. Aren’t you embarrassed to post crap like that?

  32. Jim Ryan says:

    Global warming theory is largely junk science. Models were proposed which were to explain and predict the temperature on the assumption of global warming. Hundreds of millions of dollars were available to the model makers. The models failed. They got nothing. To persist when you have nothing is junk science.
    The counter-arguments from scientists who deny global warming are plentiful and robust.
    There may be global warming or even man-made global warming. But there is no evidence for it. Unfortunately, since the field of climate science has been corrupted by money and rent seekers, we will not be able to find out whether there is global warming nearly as readily as we might have if the field had remained scientific.

  33. Ragspierre says:

    “…the field of climate science has been corrupted by money and rent seekers…”
    Great, Jim…but you left out an important source of perversion; “true believers”. Actually, most are a bastard-blend of greed, elitism, and misanthropy/Collectivism.
    I was amazed to realize some decades ago that a Collectivist agenda could express itself in something like engineering…which you would kinda think would be free of that. Not so.
    Rather than actual scientists, these guys are literally witch-doctors with advanced degrees.

  34. Drago says:

    salvage the hopelessly moronic: “Yes, there have been frauds, guess who busts them? Science! How do they bust them? By comparing the data from the fraud to the real deal, carbon dating and a whole host of other techniques.
    It’s the same scientific thinking that’s proven climate change / global warming / greenhouse effect and the rest to be a reality.”
    “By comparing the data……..”
    LOL!!
    From my earlier link on East Anglia CRU (the “Godfathers” of all the “data” that “proves” AGW): “The CRU is the world’s leading centre for reconstructing past climate and temperatures. Climate change sceptics have long been keen to examine exactly how its data were compiled. That is now impossible.”
    This. Is. Too. Easy.
    Hey salvage, please explain to all of us how it is “science” to claim the dog ate your homework and thats why the very data that underlays ALL of the BS AGW claims is somehow “missing” and “unavailable”!!
    Then explain to us how it is “science” to not care about that!!
    Hilarious!!
    Please salvage, don’t stop!! You provide more amusement than you can possibly imagine…..though from your postings it is clear you “imagine” quite a bit…..
    LOL!

  35. Ragspierre says:

    Then there is this…
    science DEMANDS challenge. Science requires TESTS. It mandates DEMONSTRATION.
    But the partisans and priests behind AGW (Anthropocentric Gorebal Whatever) will cheerfully destroy the careers AND CHARACTER of those who challenge their dogma.
    A 100 year climate model cannot be tested.
    The AGW dogma cannot be demonstrated.
    BUT we HAVE to COMPLETELY ABANDON THE STANDARD OF LIVING THE ENLIGHTENMENT PROVIDED US…RIGHT NOW!!!!
    So, you see why these pukes are more witch doctors than scientists…

  36. Ragspierre says:

    Um…sewage…???
    Kinda looks like the baby jesus loves Israel…
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204204004576049842786766586.html
    Huge new natural gas find. Whoda thunk it…??? That is, if you are sewage.

  37. Xiaoding says:

    Salvage and Barfo: please provide the conditions which will prove the falsification of your theory. If you can’t, THEORY=FAIL.
    Of course, your religious idiocy’s are your own concern. Pray to the God of warm over it!

  38. salvage says:

    >natural gas
    Ha! Ha! Yes! Natural gas is just like oil! Try and run your car or build anything out of natural gas and see if you can spot the difference.
    >please provide the conditions which will prove the falsification of your theory. If you can’t, THEORY=FAIL.
    Please provide the condition which will prove the falsification of the theory of gravity. If you can’t, THEORY=FAIL.
    It’s so cute when wingnuts think their shaking grasp of science is enough to disprove real scientisits.
    See dum-dums you’re not arguing with me or barfo you are arguing with honest to goodness pocket-protection wearing scientists. Oh I know the ones that work for BP, the Coal Industry say other stuff but they may be a wee bit biased.
    The vast majority of scientist agree that climate change is real, once again (why don’t wingnuts learn new stuff?) the controversy is cause and effect.
    But of course it’s all about the Dirty F*cking Hippies and their DFH environmental ways, they can never be even close to right in the wingnut brain so like the theist who thinks his crazy god made chicks out of a rib so they could help a taking snake trick us you just wallow in delusion and denial.

  39. Drago says:

    salvage the scientific-illiterate: “Please provide the condition which will prove the falsification of the theory of gravity. If you can’t, THEORY=FAIL.”
    Oh. My. God!!! LOL!!
    Seriously!!!
    I didn’t think it was possible, but salvage has proved he’s even more ignorant of science than I had originally thought!!! LOL!
    Ok salvage, here’s a snippet from Wikipedia (I picked wikipedia because lefties seem to loooove that stuff!) that describes the tests that proved portions of Einsteins Theory of Relativity and validated Newtonian gravitational theory:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity
    snip: “Henry Cavendish in 1784 (in an unpublished manuscript) and Johann Georg von Soldner in 1801 (published in 1804) had pointed out that Newtonian gravity predicts that starlight will bend around a massive object.[9] The same value as Soldner’s was calculated by Einstein in 1911 based on the equivalence principle alone. However, Einstein noted in 1915 in the process of completing general relativity, that his (and thus Soldner’s) 1911-result is only half of the correct value. Einstein became the first to calculate the correct value for light bending.[10]
    The first observation of light deflection was performed by noting the change in position of stars as they passed near the Sun on the celestial sphere. The observations were performed in 1919 by Sir Arthur Eddington and his collaborators during a total solar eclipse,[11] so that the stars near the Sun could be observed. Observations were made simultaneously in the cities of Sobral, Ceará, Brazil and in São Tomé and Príncipe on the west coast of Africa.[12] The result was considered spectacular news and made the front page of most major newspapers. It made Einstein and his theory of general relativity world famous.”
    Hey, looky there salvage. REAL science led to REAL predictions based on REAL mathematics that could be duplicated by ANYONE with the ability to test it!!!
    REAL SCIENCE!!!
    How about AGW, or ACC?
    From our pals at East Anglia CRU (the basis for all the GW BS): “sorry, we “lost” all of our raw data, so, no, you cannot dive in and examine the basis for our predictions…..except all of our predictions are incorrect and we have to backfill our equations and algorithms to accomodate the ACTUAL REAL WORLD RESULTS which conflict with our continuously incorrect “predictions””.
    LOL!!
    Salvage thinks real “science” means not even having your raw data to share with others!!
    Double LOL!!
    Salvage also thinks it’s real “science” to “forget” to backup the data which underlies all of your calculations!!!
    Hmmmmmm, “scientists” “forgetting” to back up all their data, which was “lost” right about the time lawsuits were going thru to force release of this raw data!
    LOL!!

  40. Drago says:

    BTW, has salvage ever shared his technical/scientific/mathematics credentials/experience/training with us?
    I thought not.
    I wonder why that is……oh yeah, he didn’t even realize that all of Newtonian and Einsteinian and everybody-else-ian theories are ALL falsifiable!!!!
    Every. One. Of. Them.
    But not “man-made Global Warming”, or “man-made climate-change”!!
    LOL!!!

  41. Ragspierre says:

    “Ha! Ha! Yes! Natural gas is just like oil! Try and run your car or build anything out of natural gas and see if you can spot the difference.”
    Gawd. What. A. DOPE.
    LNG…the LIQUEFIED form of natural gas…powers entire FLEETS of vehicles.
    PROPANE…a FRACTION of “natural gas”…powers ADDITIONAL FLEETS of vehicles and heavy equipment.
    Natural gas is used as the feed-stock in “building” THOUSANDS of products.
    Your engine (gasoline) does NOT combust a liquid, IDIOT!!!
    “The vast majority of scientist agree that climate change is real, once again (why don’t wingnuts learn new stuff?) the controversy is cause and effect.”
    Well, so does anyone else here. That would be like saying “scientists agree” the sun rises in the EAST, dumb-phuc!
    Glaciers once covered most of what we call HOME.
    As noted before…good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Really, how stupid CAN you BE, and WHY INSIST ON DISPLAYING IT…!!!!!!!!!!!!

  42. Tennwriter says:

    Salvage,
    Gov’t cheese keeps AGW/Darwinism and probably a lot of other silliness afloat. If they had to fend for themselves without Big Brother, in the free marketplace of ideas, they’d have been sooner destroyed.
    Which is a good reason, my righty friends, for the Separation of Science and the State. Do you want Lysenkoism? Then fund that supercollider for the greater glory of the Nat—err–State. We need to purify our house of liars, and happily the method to do so is very fiscally conservative. A man is willing to pretend to believe all sorts of nonsense if you pay him to do so, but if he has to come up with his own money….well, that’s a horse of a different color.
    Now for Salvage,
    Occam’s Razor. You can multiply causes by postulating a new species/sub-species (it changes back and forth over the decades), or you can see Humans with a malady. Since the malady is known to exist, the Razor suggests #2. Could be wrong, sometimes the Razor is, but its generally right.
    Piltdown had a cricket stick. One might reasonably suggest that ‘scientists’ in England, who see a ‘cricket stick’ bone, and don’t immediately suspect they’re being scammed by a practical joker as gullible.
    Java….well, no, the guy who hid it, decided thirty years later to pull it out in favor of another Evo theory of his. Supposedly no one blinked. This tells you you’re not dealing with science.
    Nebraska…pig tooth becomes a man. Lots of creativity here. Lots. And this is the case that helped the Evos in Scopes. Lets say as a Lefty would ‘I question the timing.’ It was, disproven fairly quickly afterwards, so me being the cynical sort I am, am thinking someone decided to gin up something that would stand scrutiny for a few months or years.
    As to Science disproving hoaxes, well, I’ve dealt with that, but have another story. Neanderthal Man. Now, the guy who puts him together is a guy with his own version of Evo (it happens all the time and really is no big deal. Everyone out on the cutting edge had slightly different versions of the Theory Du Jour in any science.), and he sees that NM is going to hurt his theory. Now, the guy who did this is very capable, so suggesting he made mistake is unlikely. So he turns NM into the hunched over creature of our childhoods, who ‘would have sprained his neck to look at the sky’.)
    This is what gets taught for 45 years until a couple of other scientists look over his work, and realize ‘Hey! This Don’t Make Any Sense At All!’. It takes a while for the news to spread, and the Chicago Museum of Nat’l History eventually moves the old and totally disproven NM exhibit and labels it ‘alternate view of NM’….which it wasn’t. What it was was wrong.
    So, one of the key supports, and not really something terribly complicated for a trained scientist in the right field, I believe, a very visible support….is a fraud for half a century. Doesn’t speak well of Science’s self policing powers does it?
    I’m not sure what your next paragraph means. I do see you doing the ‘appeal to authority’, but since I appeal to the same authority….Science, I don’t think that helps you. Science supports Special Creation.
    As to your next para of entertaining invective, consider this. I’ve written SF, and even designed some hard SF. Science is very great indeed. My problem is that Scientists have let Charlatans into their House, and they need to do like the Christ. Yank off their pocket protectors, pick up a club of research papers, and chase those Money Grubbers out of the Temple.
    Way back when Darwin was first starting his Delusional Detour into bad philosophy as a second rate experimentalist, his primary foes were not churchmen, but paleontologists. Would they had the courage to see true again!
    As to ‘mountains of proof’ what seems to be more happening is that, as some wag put it, evolution is always happening somewhere else. The fossil record supports Special Creation. But if we weren’t made by God the Creator, then how do explain….everything, anything? Just something to trouble you in your night watches. Abiogenesis, or Big Bang, or Evo….bad philosophy, poor logic, and not supported by the bulk of the evidence.
    My righty friends, ask yourselves this….by your fruits, ye will know them. Has Evo produced any good pleasant fruit? Or did it lead to Naziism, and provides the basis for the Attack on the West? Perhaps you think its logical. We would do fine in biology without it. So….its kinda like Salvage telling you the Sun is going to rise tommorrow….wouldn’t you want to check, because he’s so wrong about everything else?
    As to Haeckel’s drawings, I’m currently left with ‘Do I believe Salvage or my own lying eyes?’ Being the snotnose that I am (literally right now, got a cold), I’ll go with choice B. I hate to say it, but perhaps you can prove this allegation of rebuttal?
    1)That’s the point in contention. You can’t use it as a proving point.
    2)Um, Jesus was not a historical personage? Please put down the bong, and get help, soonest.
    The word ‘dinosaur’ did not exist until a hundred years or so after the KJV translators did work. When Bob the Downtrodden Peasant in the 12th Century saw a big bone in the field, he said ‘dragon’. When Jill the Sexually Harrassed Archeologist Student in the 21st Century finds one, she says ‘dinosaur’.
    In your theory, certain things have to be fantasy. So when the Welsh flag has a stylized dinosaur on it, it means nothing to you. And if your theory is correct, then so are the guides at a Native American cave site who point at pictures of various animals scratched in the wall, and ID each as a living animal, until they come to Apatosaur, and say ‘fantasy’.
    Now from the viewpoint of an Evolutionist I might as well be talking about Gandalf the Grey and Sauron as a true history. Which is kinda the point. Either they are right, or I (or something kinda like my theory, but cleverer, lots cleverer as I make no claims to genius) am. Evolution is a fantasy for statists who hate the West, hate Life, worship Death, and have halitosis.
    I doubt I convince Salvage. My goal is not such. My goal is to get the right to realize who the true enemy is. My friends, the folks who are ardent Evos also tend to be the sort who support all manner of evil, just like Salvage. Come, my friends, if Salvage hates it, it can’t be all bad, can it?

  43. Xiaoding says:

    “>please provide the conditions which will prove the falsification of your theory. If you can’t, THEORY=FAIL.
    Please provide the condition which will prove the falsification of the theory of gravity. If you can’t, THEORY=FAIL. ”
    You answer a question with a question…FAIL. Sometimes, this is appropriate, but in this case, it is because of your ignorance of science, and of the theory of gravity.
    You didn’t even fool yourself. You kmow you are a know nothing.

  44. salvage says:

    Natural gas in not a practical replacement for oil, when we run out of it then sure, point is we’re trying to avoid that.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/jeff-rubins-smaller-world/will-tumbling-natural-gas-prices-fell-oil-as-well/article1392842/
    >PROPANE…a FRACTION of “natural gas”…powers ADDITIONAL FLEETS of vehicles and heavy equipment.
    Weird. Why aren’t we all driving propane powered cars?
    >Natural gas is used as the feed-stock in “building” THOUSANDS of products.
    Weird. Why aren’t more products being built with it then?
    >Glaciers once covered most of what we call HOME.
    Yes and a theory is that was caused by greenhouse gasses so if we’re are releasing the same carbons that caused the first one by burning fossil fuels… eh? eh? See what could be going on?

  45. Ragspierre says:

    “Natural gas in not a practical replacement for oil”
    In what application, STUPID. A Btu is a Btu. Or did that escape you????
    “Weird. Why aren’t we all driving propane powered cars?”
    Because of the AMPLE supply of petroleum. Or did THAT escape you????
    “Weird. Why aren’t more products being built with it then?”
    WTF?
    “Yes and a theory is that was caused by greenhouse gasses…”
    Support that somebody has a theory the a previous ICE AGE was caused by green-house gases. I mean, good gawd…

  46. salvage says:

    >Gov’t cheese keeps AGW/Darwinism and probably a lot of other silliness afloat. If they had to fend for themselves without Big Brother, in the free marketplace of ideas, they’d have been sooner destroyed.
    So… it’s not the mountains (in some cases literally) of evidence that keep evolution as an idea alive it’s the government paying people to keep it going?
    Um… so why does the government does this?
    > for the Separation of Science and the State.
    What?
    Do you want Lysenkoism? Then fund that supercollider for the greater glory of the Nat—err–State.
    Supercollider bad? I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone complaining about that. Amazing.
    >Nebraska…pig tooth becomes a man.
    Yup, definitely a Ray Comfort fan.
    Here’s what happened there, guy finds tooth, says it’s a caveman’s tooth, he sends it to scientists for confirmation. Media hears about Caveman tooth so they do a story complete with drawing of caveman. Scientists meanwhile look at the tooth and send it back saying “Extinct pig of vague interest”. Media doesn’t bother with followup because pig teeth are boring.
    Ever since Creationists have been for some bizarre reason declaring the fake that science always called a fake is proof that evolution never happened.
    While ignoring the actual evidence that science says is the real deal. For some weird reason theists don’t ever talk about that stuff.
    ‘kay you blah blahed a bunch of stuff that really doesn’t make any sense but I thought this funny:
    >My problem is that Scientists have let Charlatans into their House, and they need to do like the Christ. Yank off their pocket protectors, pick up a club of research papers, and chase those Money Grubbers out of the Temple.
    See you don’t get how science works, they’re constantly kicking each other, one comes up with a theory and a dozen will shout him down and set about proving it wrong. Charlatans don’t last long in that environment, it’s quite cut throat.
    Oh and why did your Jesus care about money grubbers in his temple? How does that come close to having any effect on a omnipotent being? It’s weird how human your god gets sometimes.
    >Way back when Darwin was first starting his Delusional Detour into bad philosophy as a second rate experimentalist, his primary foes were not churchmen, but paleontologists. Would they had the courage to see true again!
    They sure were, like I said, when one scientist presents a theory others pounce on it until they’re convinced.
    Guess what happened?
    Oh and evolution wasn’t Darwin’s idea exactly, it predated his birth and before he published Origins another scientist published his version. Charles was clever, he carefully noted the criticism it received and answered much of it in his own version.
    >As to ‘mountains of proof’ what seems to be more happening is that, as some wag put it, evolution is always happening somewhere else.
    What a dumb wag that is. If you want to see evolution in action than you need look no further than the humble bacteria, the fruit fly and certain species of live bearing lizards and even the Killer Whale. The whale is quite interesting it’s splitting towards a new species right before our eyes.
    Whale evolution is always cool, they went from water to land and back to the water, as if they realized what they had been missing.
    >The fossil record supports Special Creation.
    Special? As in Olympic because you’re sounding a bit retarded here. (quick someone point out this line proves that liberals hate the handicapped and Palin’s baby)
    The fossil record most certainly does not support any sort of magical animal making. What it does support is evolution.
    >But if we weren’t made by God the Creator, then how do explain….everything, anything?
    See this is such a silly argument, what you’re saying is that because we don’t know the answer the answer must be your god. That’s a very old one, goes all the way back to “Hey, what is that hot flaming thing in the sky?” “Why that’s a god!” of course now we know that is just a lot of very hot gas.
    See that’s what gods are for, answering questions we can’t. Now that’s fine when you’re a tribe of desert savages and don’t have time for science because you’re too busy kicking the heck out a neighboring tribe but now we demand a wee bit more articulation and depth to our answers.
    Well, some of us at any rate.
    >Just something to trouble you in your night watches. Abiogenesis, or Big Bang, or Evo….bad philosophy, poor logic, and not supported by the bulk of the evidence.
    And that is exactly wrong.
    >My righty friends, ask yourselves this….by your fruits, ye will know them. Has Evo produced any good pleasant fruit?
    Ha! Ha! I love where this is going.
    >Or did it lead to Naziism, and provides the basis for the Attack on the West?
    Nazism, gosh I’m sorry, what religion was Germany again? The offical state religion? And The Axis, you had Japan and Italy, what was Italy’s state religion again? See I don’t quite remember the Nazi oath evoking Darwin. I do recall the Vatican being great pals with Hitler tho.
    I know, I know all those millions of Christian Nazis weren’t real Christians, heck there hadn’t been Christianity in German ever! Certainly not the birthplace of the Reformation and 100s of years of state sponsored Antisemitism that most certainly fueled the Holocaust.
    Darwin talked about survival of the fittest and he was slightly wrong, it’s more the reproduction of the fittest. Nazis talked about the survival of the strong and the destruction of the weak, a subtle difference to you perhaps.
    At any rate it shows how truly bankrupt you are by pointing a finger at the Nazis saying “Nazis like evolution therefore it must be wrong!”
    America walked on the Moon thanks to some Nazi science, turns out that the laws of nature and physics obey can not only be discovered by good and evil but used by such but that doesn’t change their reality.
    >I hate to say it, but perhaps you can prove this allegation of rebuttal?
    It’s called Google Sparky, learn to use it.
    >1)That’s the point in contention. You can’t use it as a proving point.
    What’s in contention? That dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago and no human ever saw a live one much less 2,000 years ago? Not there is no contention on that point at all.
    >2)Um, Jesus was not a historical personage? Please put down the bong, and get help, soonest.
    Well there’s the small detail that history didn’t notice him? Please don’t start yabbling about the countless people who saw him, that’s only in the Bible and it is not a Source of history, at least not a dependable one what with all the talking snakes and crazy god stories.
    Also please don’t bring up Josephus, that entry is clearly a forgery and the other one mentions his brother, a rather unimpressive record for an alleged god. We have more details on Roman tax politics from that era than your god.
    I’m sorry but I won’t even entertain the idea of dragons being real, even I have limits to how much wingnut I can take.
    >In your theory, certain things have to be fantasy.
    Reality’s theory too I think.
    >So when the Welsh flag has a stylized dinosaur on it, it means nothing to you.
    No it means they like dragons because they’re cool. They also have unicorns on flags, doesn’t mean I’m going to promise my niece a live one for her birthday.
    I know as a theist you have trouble understanding this but sometimes people do make stuff up about magic, sometimes they even write it down, don’t make it real.
    >And if your theory is correct, then so are the guides at a Native American cave site who point at pictures of various animals scratched in the wall, and ID each as a living animal, until they come to Apatosaur, and say ‘fantasy’.
    Hmm, a primitive wall scratching or carbon dating and the fossil record? Gosh, what to believe?!?!
    Anyway you think dragons are real so you’re far too silly to talk to.

  47. Ragspierre says:

    “Nazism, gosh I’m sorry, what religion was Germany again? The offical state [Nazi] religion?”
    That would be “the State”. Idiot. Secular humanism.
    “Nothing above the State”.
    Just like you want, sewage.

  48. Tennwriter says:

    Mountains of evidence against, dude, against. Yes, the Big Lie can work quite well with lots of money and ostracization for dissenters.
    Why? Something related to the gramscian march through the institutions, and a dislike of an Almighty Judge who might hold them accountable for the wickedness they do to their fellow man.
    We both admit Separation of Church and State is good. How can you not see that separating the corrupting power of the State from Science would be good?
    And yeah, I’m more Fiscon than most fiscons.
    What Actual Evidence? Perhaps you can buy me an electron microscope to find it?
    Not really, that’s not how Science works. In an Ideal Utopia, yeah. In the Real World, no one (okay, few) has money to go disprove Bob down the hall’s work. They’re busy trying to prove their own fact, and get their own grant.
    In an Ideal World, all Christians ask Christ how to show love this day and every day, and Police never take more than a free doughnut, and Scientists are …..in the Real World, I’m sometimes just mean for no reason, and cops are on the take, and scientists are gullible adn over hurried.
    Of course, Darwin was not totally new. Nothing new under the sun said the Creator.
    And…’The origin of the species by means of natural selection: the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life’. You can go to Amazon.com, and buy Darwin’s book…
    As to the flaming ball of gas in the sky, no not what I meant. I assumed you understood more than was reasonable. Read the ID arguements.
    Wonder what favored races mean?
    Darwin is a racist scumbag.
    My God was both Man and God as He said. He came to walk in our shoes. As to why…well, why didn’t He just make us perfect by his will? He could. Freedom is important. He wants people who choose to love him. Not much good to make some bots. You would not be satisfied with friends who were really robots, and had no minds of their own.
    No, what I say is that Darwin was a neccessary condition, not a sufficient condition for Hitler. Thus if Darwin had died young, there likely would not have been the Holocaust. Of course, that means Stalin wins….kind of hard to fix history when so many idiots are determined to mess it up.
    I contend that Dinosaurs were not here 65 million years ago. I think this word does not mean what you think it means, Salvage. You’re trying for a clumsy appeal to authority.
    Textus Receptus dude. The most validated by a very long shot ancient history. If the Bible tain’t real, tain’t none of ancient history real.
    Of course, you think Reality’s theory. I think that too. IMO, in Reality’s theory, you’re so far wrong, its a bad joke. I understand you think roughly the same way bout me….but with more four letter words.
    Sure, people make up stories. But do they make up the same story over and over again, in different hemispheres and different millenium?
    Fossil records my friend. And I’ll take an eyewitness who is disinterested (Chief Scratches on Wall had no knowledge of us, and probably couldn’t have cared less) over a dating technique with serious issues.
    And the thing with Dragons aka Dinosaurs is if my theory is correct, it would have to be true. So you’re basically saying…if you take your theory seriously, I can’t talk to you.
    Fair enough. I’m not really talking to you anyways.
    And thanks Rags.
    I understand Rags and Drago have issues with anger management, and you volunteer your services daily, letting them beat you into a bloody pulp, which I find quite noble of you. Carry on.

  49. Ragspierre says:

    Yeah…and foils are FUN, Tenn…!!!
    Instructive, too.

  50. salvage says:

    >Mountains of evidence against, dude, against.
    Nope. The fossil record was pretty compelling the gnome project sealed the deal. Some 3.5 billion years ago the first cell appeared and then it split.
    No goofy god with anger issues required.
    > Almighty Judge who might hold them accountable for the wickedness they do to their fellow man.
    Ha! Ha! Yes! I’m an atheist not because there hasn’t been any convincing arguments for the existence of magic but because I want to be evil consequence free.
    Yet strangely atheists are no more or less criminals than theists so, again, no, you are wrong.
    >We both admit Separation of Church and State is good. How can you not see that separating the corrupting power of the State from Science would be good?
    This is an apple, this is an orangutan, they are different things.
    >What Actual Evidence? Perhaps you can buy me an electron microscope to find it?
    I don’t have to, it’s all online now, you can look at the genome project, read the latest papers, download documentaries that present all the proof in easy to understand ways. Naturally you won’t the fear of losing your god too great.
    >Read the ID arguements.
    I have, they’re all full of nonsense. Like the “pig tooth” thing ID ignores anything that proves evolution and harps on the old and debunked theories of the past. It jams your god into the gaps claiming that’s as good a proving. You did it yourself in this very thread.
    >Darwin is a racist scumbag.
    By our standards no doubt and so were the Founding Fathers and pretty much the majority of the Western World. Darwin wasn’t right about everything but he was right about more than enough.
    >My God was both Man and God as He said. He came to walk in our shoes.
    Why? See it’s so bizarre the way your god doesn’t act like a god. A real omnipotent being wouldn’t need to do anything of the sort, he would already know the full dimension of being human just by willing it. Being a god means you don’t need processes, that’s the stuff of mortals and our limits. See the Classic gods did walk amongst people but the Greeks Romans and the rest were smart enough to make their gods more human with limits (emotions like fear, anger, jealousy etc).
    An omnipotent god doing messing with people just doesn’t make sense.
    >As to why…well, why didn’t He just make us perfect by his will?
    He did remember? According to your creation myth we were perfect until we ate some magic fruit right?
    >He could. Freedom is important. He wants people who choose to love him.
    No, your god is insane with the insecurity, if people don’t love it it has them tortured for eternity, that’s not free will, that’s extortion.
    >No, what I say is that Darwin was a neccessary condition, not a sufficient condition for Hitler. Thus if Darwin had died young, there likely would not have been the Holocaust.
    And that’s a lie or you’re very stupid. The Holocaust was the accumulation of centuries of anti-Semitism, Hitler didn’t’ invent the stuff, you know that right? Darwin wasn’t the Treaty of Versailles, nor was he the Depression, the Japaneses Empire or any of the other half-dozen factors that went into WWII like WWI.
    I know as a theist you need to keep things simple but really, Darwin as cause of the Holocaust? Why don’t you contact anyone of the many Holocaust museums and ask them what they think of that theory. I wonder if they would laugh or cry at you?
    At any rate since Jews are hell-bound wouldn’t the Holocaust be mild in comparison to what your god has planned for them?
    >Of course, that means Stalin wins….kind of hard to fix history when so many idiots are determined to mess it up.
    Um… wow, you don’t know history very well do you? Stalin did win, he was with the Allies? Hello?
    >I contend that Dinosaurs were not here 65 million years ago.
    They died out 65 million years ago most likely after the Earth was hit by a meteor or giant comet.
    >You’re trying for a clumsy appeal to authority.
    Um, no, not really. So when did the dinosaurs die out? Last week?
    >If the Bible tain’t real, tain’t none of ancient history real.
    No, again, not really. The Bible’s value to history is a bit like a Tom Clancy novel. They contain real people, places and situations but it’s still fiction.
    >Sure, people make up stories. But do they make up the same story over and over again, in different hemispheres and different millenium?
    Oh you mean the way the Aztecs knew about Jesus and Moses and the Bible?
    Or are you saying dragons are real because more than one person in different places and times made them up? Not sure if that’s actually proving anything.
    >Fossil records my friend. And I’ll take an eyewitness who is disinterested
    That would be the fossil record then, it’s completely disinterested in anything.
    >(Chief Scratches on Wall had no knowledge of us, and probably couldn’t have cared less) over a dating technique with serious issues.
    It doesn’t have serious issues, measuring decay at the atomic level is as precise as can be. I know you theists need to believe otherwise so you do but like evolution it’s been proven to be true.
    >And the thing with Dragons aka Dinosaurs is if my theory is correct,
    It’s not you deeply silly person, it is not.
    No gods, no dragons, no magic, no Jesus playing a bizarre game of cosmic chess with his own self-made nemesis with you as both pawn and prize.

  51. Tennwriter says:

    Of course, I know Stalin won. He was a Georgian (not our Georgia just in case you’re going to keep on trying to act dumb). That wasn’t his real name, it meant ‘Man of Steel’. His real name was Iosysfwich?? Something. When he died the Russians were so petrified of Comrade Joe they waited like three days just in case to see if he’d wake up and begin slaughtering again. He said ‘you can’t make an ommellette without breaking a few eggs’ and ‘one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic’.
    Now, while I’m not an expert on WW2, being only moderately studied, I’m well aware of who the Big Three were at Yalta.
    There’s always something new to replace the old and debunked. Its a con game. And if some evidence has to be tortured on a Procrustean bed to make it fit, well its in a ‘good’ cause. And if some has to be made up, still, good cause. And if everyone has to change to one theory, realize that one doesn’t work, and dash back to the just bedamned previous variant theory, well, Say It With Me…..’It’s In A Good Cause!’
    Of course not, people telling stories of Jesus, but of events that had a worldwide impact physically ….200 different Flood tales, and lots of different dinotales from all over.
    Let’s visit the Grand Canyon.
    According to conventional evolutionary theory, about 2 Glibbilious years ago, Arrgh the Ape Precursor to Man took a leak. This created a small channel in the dust. Other waters found the channel, it grew. As layers of dirt that became stone were laid down, the river cut throught them. Millions of years passed between the various layers of stone. Fast forward to the Present–the Grand Canyon! Wow, and all cause Arrgh wanted to relieve himself. Ain’t evolutiion grand.
    According to my theory….
    Noah’s Flood….water drains off the land into the oceans……but there are some places where the water stays behind. The Great Salt Lake is the remnant of Lake Bessemer which covered a huge chunk of the American West….Now, Noah’s Flood laid down layer after layer of mud with perhaps a week between them…This explains why you have large flat swathes and vertical trees….earthen dam breaks….Bessemer roars through the still somewhat wet mud layers to the Gulf.
    Bam. Grand Canyon.
    There’s a hundred foot deep canyon out Mt. St. Helens way that got that way in nine days or so.
    Simple math really. Time X Water=Erosion. Evos put the T as real high, YEC’s put the W as real high. Either way can produce high E.
    But, if there is no erosion between layers of stone that Evos tell us are thirty million years apart, but are flush next to each other…..you’re left with the conclusion that the lower strata was left open to the air for 30M years. Perfectly valid so far, Evolutionarily.
    But then you realize there are no signs of erosion. Land doesn’t lay out for 30M years without eroding.
    The Creationist looks at this through his own set of assumptions, and sees that this matches what he’d expect. He expects a layer of mud got laid down by the Flood, and a week later during the Flood some water current thick with mud came by and dumped another mud layer. Presto, two layers of rock.
    Not the only reason, the Fossil Record is the Creationist’s buddy, but one of them.

  52. salvage says:

    Okay, so we’ve established that you do know how WWII played out, shame you’re still confused about how Darwin wasn’t to blame.
    >According to conventional evolutionary theory, about 2 Glibbilious years ago, Arrgh the Ape Precursor to Man took a leak. This created a small channel in the dust. Other waters found the channel, it grew. As layers of dirt that became stone were laid down, the river cut throught them. Millions of years passed between the various layers of stone. Fast forward to the Present–the Grand Canyon! Wow, and all cause Arrgh wanted to relieve himself. Ain’t evolutiion grand.
    Um… wow.
    So you don’t even have the first clue what evolution is about then.
    >Noah’s Flood..
    Was a myth based on an older myth and of course falls complete apart when the slightest bit of logic and reason are applied. First and formost the amount of water needed to cover the Earth would create such an atmosphere that anyone in an Ark would be killed instantly a few different ways.
    Oh and a modern zoo has trouble keeping a handful of animals alive, I can’t imagine keeping all of them alive in a wooden boat. Heck Julius Caesar couldn’t even get a Giraffe over from Africa, they did manage a rhino but it wasn’t the same thing.
    >large flat swathes and vertical trees..
    The vertical petrified trees, another Creationist bit of nonsense. At different times in the Earths history different things happened!
    Different!
    Like sometimes tiny bits of material piled on-top of itself very, very slowly and other times mud slides, earthquakes and the like made it happen very quickly!
    Like how sometimes the wind is gentle and sometimes it’s a hurricane?
    So in a few places where the conditions were right the dirt piled up quickly giving us the trees and in other areas it happened slowly.
    See this is found in any textbook on the subject but theist wingnuts keep repeating it over and over again. Do you know that you are wrong? Do care? Of course not, if you did you wouldn’t be a theist.
    As for the age of the Earth it’s not just carbon dating, accretion and other terristial chunks of evidence the stars also agree. The universe as far as we can see back is 13.7 billion years old (give or take a million years or so) and the Earth about 4.5 and life about 3.5.
    Now if that isn’t true and your god did make the cosmos as it says it did than your god has a weird sense of humor because he sure made a universes look exactly like no one “built” it.
    An important clue is just how darn big and hostile to life it is, your god sure loves empty space, hydrogen and radiation.

  53. Tennwriter says:

    Evolution has about eight meanings. Uniformatarianism, the doctrine of slow and gradual changes, of the present being the key to the past, of geologies slowly changing over hundreds of millenia is a key support of Evo. Unfortunately, real science has realized what should have been obvious. Catastrophism, aka, in the past singular, massively destructive events happened. This is destructive to Evo, of course.
    Detailed enough? I sometimes find myself using common slang, and for that you task me as ignorant.
    If you had only small bits of land where a tiny flood (relatively speaking) covered a vertical tree, and this did not happen too often, you’d have a better point.
    One thing I suggest is Worldview Glasses. Just as a mental exercise, mind you, say….OK, the Earth is 6K years old, and the Bible is literally true where its trying to be literal. Now ask yourself, can I find reasonable explanations for most of the things out there? You might see that the Universe does not look that old to an understanding eye.
    Young Earth Creationism is a better scientific theory than any of the forms of Evolution.
    Now, there are no Creationist, and no Darwinist facts. Just facts, and the interpretation thereof. With the Grand Canyon, we know it exists. This is a fact. It could be my interpretation of the facts is right, or yours, or we’re both wrong, and Gray Aliens used an alien supersoaker to carve it out.
    And as to your questions about philosophy, you might try the same Worldview Glasses, and ask the Creator. He says come let us reason together. But, it will take time, and you will need to open your mind. Remember, you’re dealing with a Being who is A–lots smarter B–perfectly good as no human is C–Not human. Even the greatest in the Lord don’t have all answers. In fact, a few months ago, I heard a guy say from the lectern at the front of my Baptist Church that he had more questions now then when he started. I think that was my pastor, and he’s been a Christian and a Christian leader for decades.
    I once read some interesting speculation. Angels would have vast areas of lack of knowledge it would seem to them. And this is because of their already great knowledge that they would realize even more keenly and clearly the vast depths yet to be swum. Its the ignorant man who imagines he knows most of what’s worthwhile already (a fault of mine) so the theory goes. The wise knows much, but sees even more clearly what he does not know.

  54. Drago says:

    I’m still waiting to hear salvage explain how it is “science” to lose all your raw data so no other scientists can “check your work” and validate your calculations.
    Yet salvage is okey-dokey with all that.
    Must be the “new leftist science”, which is to real science what ebonics is to language studies.
    And note, it was the left promoting ebonics as well!!
    LOL!!
    You can’t make this stuff up!
    leftist: “we have proof that man-made Global Warming (oops, “climate change”) is real!!!”
    Skeptic: “let me see your data.”
    leftist: “oops, we’ve lost all the raw data. Is that a problem?”
    Skeptic: “yes, because now your data massaging which you used to create your models are not testable or verifiable.”
    leftist: “oh, you can trust us.”
    salvage: “Thats real science baby!!”
    LOL!

  55. salvage says:

    >Detailed enough? I sometimes find myself using common slang, and for that you task me as ignorant.
    Uh no, you kind of jibber jabbered a meaningless word salad. Like most creationists you have a vague idea of some terminology but for the most part are quite clueless. There are many books on evolution you should read them, if you’re going to be wrong about something you might want to try and at least look like you understand it.
    >If you had only small bits of land where a tiny flood (relatively speaking) covered a vertical tree, and this did not happen too often, you’d have a better point.
    What? The upright petrified trees happened wherever conditions were right. My point is how they got there is perfectly understood and doesn’t contradict anything established facts of geology or the Earth’s age.
    >You might see that the Universe does not look that old to an understanding eye.
    No, thanks to the properties of light we know exactly how old that stuff is and if it’s a mere 6,000 years than the sky at night makes no sense.
    Oh and the carbon that makes us needs more than a few billion years to cook.
    Once again if the cosmos is 6k years old than your god went to extraordinary lengths to make it look otherwise.
    >Young Earth Creationism is a better scientific theory than any of the forms of Evolution.
    It most certainly is not, there is not a single slip of evidence that suggest any sort of intelligent design or a young Earth, the exact opposite in fact.
    >Now, there are no Creationist, and no Darwinist facts. Just facts, and the interpretation thereof.
    1 + 1 = 2. Please interpret that fact in some other way.
    >With the Grand Canyon, we know it exists. This is a fact. It could be my interpretation of the facts is right, or yours, or we’re both wrong, and Gray Aliens used an alien supersoaker to carve it out.
    Ah, the final refuge of the theist; NOTHING IS REAL! I’m sorry Sparky the Grand Canyon was made one way and all the evidence supports it. No gods, no aliens, no impossible floods from a crazy genocidal sky god.
    >He says come let us reason together.
    I’m sorry, isn’t this the same god that did that whole Tower of Babel thing? Isn’t that the same god who in the Old Testament at least loved war and destroying anyone who didn’t worship him? Have you read your god’s whole story? Reason ain’t his thing. For instance, flooding the planet, that’s an act of reason?
    >But, it will take time, and you will need to open your mind.
    Cliched but true, my mind is open but not so much that my brain falls out.
    >Remember, you’re dealing with a Being who is A–lots smarter B–perfectly good as no human is C–Not human.
    No, I’m deal with a wingnut who has delusions of magic. The god of your Bible is a) an idiot (hello, evil snake ruining your creation! How’d that slither past him?) b) perfectly good? That’d be the god that killed all those Egyptian babies for the crimes of their parent’s dictatorial government? The one who commanded genocide? Shall I list all the crimes of your barbaric god?
    >he had more questions now then when he started.
    Sadly he won’t find any answers if he keeps on looking to magic for them, all theism provides is platitudes and superstition.
    >The wise knows much, but sees even more clearly what he does not know.
    Yeah, Socrates and Plato came up with that some 300 years before anyone knew your Jesus. They were real by the way (well Plato at least) guess how we know that? Hint, same reason we know your Jesus wasn’t.
    So to summarize, gods aren’t real, people want to believe in them because life is hard and scary and the idea of an god looking our for us is comforting and to maintain that delusion theist will believe any old nonsense.
    Like a 6,000 year old Earth.

  56. Ragspierre says:

    **So where do the 1934/1998/2010 warm years rank in the long-term list of warm years? Of the past 10,500 years, 9,100 were warmer than 1934/1998/2010. Thus, regardless of which year ( 1934, 1998, or 2010) turns out to be the warmest of the past century, that year will rank number 9,099 in the long-term list.
    The climate has been warming slowly since the Little Ice Age, but it has quite a ways to go yet before reaching the temperature levels that persisted for nearly all of the past 10,500 years.**
    That there is science, sewage. Not witch-doctor computer projections that NOBODY can test OR demonstrate…but which you take as an article of faith.

  57. salvage says:

    Poor dumb wingnut, like your theist kin you pick up the bits of science that you think supports your retardation and ignore anything that says otherwise.
    It’s how wingnuts roll I know but it always confuses me how you can do it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy to be confused in this case, I suspect the only way to truly understand the wingnut is to be one but ironically wingnuts understand very little so maybe not.

  58. Ragspierre says:

    “…you pick up the bits of science that you think supports your retardation and ignore anything that says otherwise.”
    Idiot, that is not a refutation of the DATA. That CAN be tested, challenged, AND demonstrated.
    It isn’t even an argument. It is just your TRANSCENDENTLY STUPID attack.
    You religiously put knee-jerk faith in total CRAP. And, like your witch-doctors, you insist that it is beyond challenge, testing is a luxury we can’t afford, and there is NO FREAKING NEED to demonstrate validity.

  59. Tennwriter says:

    No.
    No.
    Read ‘Starlight and Time’.
    Carbon? (Yes, I’m aware it an element, the one most neccessary for life, etc.. You keep making these weird assumptions that make me suspect you’re doing it on purpose. If I say something that could be taken a reasonable way or an unreasonable one, you seek the unreasonable explanation.)
    Again no.
    Just literally mountains of evidence, piles of bones, logic, reason, historical tales, the best documented texts of the Ancient World…..no, nothing supports Creationism….if you have a blindfold on, that is.
    1+1=2. It is a fact. I’m finding my creativity a bit limited at the moment as to what other interpretation than the obvious I should prefer.
    A better example of the difference between fact and theory is unfortunately not AGW, because there the Global Warmists do seem to have their own set of facts which they haven’t deigned to show the rest of us. Is it better to eat a low-fat diet (the gov’t answer), or a high-protein diet (Atkins style)? Both sides have the same facts, but they deduce different answers from those facts.
    NOTHING IS REAL???? Sigh. There are three answers to a controvery between two people. Side A is right. Side B is right. Or they are both wrong.
    I’m not going to defend my God’s actions at this point. I was inviting you to take up the issue with Him. This will help to put you in the proper mindset to actually learn.

  60. salvage says:

    >Starlight and Time
    I will not as it is a Creationist Track of no scientific value, however if you have peer reviewed article that says what “Starlight and Time” says I’d be happy to take a look.
    >Carbon? (Yes, I’m aware it an element, the one most neccessary for life, etc
    No, I don’t think yo do understand. We are made out of carbon, carbon takes time to form, hint it’s longer than 6,000 years. Let me guess, you have a creationist pamphlet that explains that carbon can form overnight?
    >Just literally mountains of evidence,
    The same mountains formed by continental drift? So the Himalayas, how long did they take to rise?
    >piles of bones,
    Bones? I’ve got fossils, much older than bones, takes a long time to form, much more than 6,000 years. They also show evolution on land, sea and air.
    >logic, reason,
    Ha! Ha! Yes! The story of the sky god making magic fruit that his creation wasn’t supposed to eat but did anyways because they were tricked by a snake and this made him very angry (despite the fact that he could have prevented it countless ways) is perfectly logical! And then telling a story about it that doesn’t come close to matching the physical proof makes even more sense!
    >historical tales,
    Like what? The slaughter of the innocents? Never happened, the Exodus of the Jews? Never happened. Some Rabbi causing a fuss in Jersalem by raising the dead? Never happened? Noah? Never happened. We know these things never happened because they would have left a great deal of evidence and none is to be found.
    Yes, please don’t rabbit on about them finding cities from the Bible. Stephen King writes about Maine doesn’t mean there are evil clowns in the sewers.
    >the best documented texts of the Ancient World
    Would be, from that time, Josephus and for some weird reason he totally missed the whole god coming to Earth thing. In fact it seemed to have gone over everyone’s head. No one even wrote about it until some 30 years later and they couldn’t even get their stories straight! Not to mention they cribbed a great deal from older Bible stories and other mythologies.
    >no, nothing supports Creationism
    Correct!

  61. salvage says:

    >Is it better to eat a low-fat diet (the gov’t answer), or a high-protein diet (Atkins style)? Both sides have the same facts, but they deduce different answers from those facts.
    Sure, but what you’re saying as a Creationist is that there is no proof that eating fat and sugar leads to weight gain because that’s what the Bible says.
    >There are three answers to a controvery between two people. Side A is right. Side B is right. Or they are both wrong.
    No, there is a right answer bases on logic, reason and of course evidence and then there is everything else, that stuff is wrong.
    When you say the universe is 6,000 years old you are flat out, completely and totally wrong.
    >I’m not going to defend my God’s actions at this point.
    How does one defend the murder of babies in their crib? How does one justify genocide? Good thing your god isn’t real, he’s quite the nutter.
    >I was inviting you to take up the issue with Him.
    Since it’s not real that’s not possible. Delusions are like that.
    >This will help to put you in the proper mindset to actually learn.
    Ha! Ha! Yes! I am the one who needs to learn.

  62. Tennwriter says:

    Now you’re not even trying. Just nah-nah, you’re wrong, hah-hah.
    Probably couldn’t handle the math anyways on S and T. I couldn’t.
    “In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.” Of course, that includes carbon. I’m not sure what the big deal you’re making about carbon for.
    However, if you want to read ‘Creation’s Tiny Mysteries’ by Oak Ridge scientist which gives a bit more detail as it explains that the oldest granites had to be created in a three minute time span (the arguement has to do with radioactive decay.)
    You assert that Carbon has to be more than 6000 years old, and thus I’m wrong, but without offering any proof whatsover. Well, I say you’re a purple and pink dragon from Aldebran, and the fact that Aldebranese dragons only talk as silly as you, proves it. Case closed, you’re an illegal alien.
    The same mountains formed possibly by a much faster process of drift (we only see the slowed down process now) and/or by the receding of waters after the Noahic Flood. I have already dealt with the rise of the mountains, dude, do keep up.
    Piles of bones, piles of fossils. Whaaatevaaaah. Hide behind semanticims when logic fails, eh? Those bones come with carefully inscribed dates, in English, right? And the ones that are found in places where they’re not supposed to be just need the touch of an Evo’s magic wand, eh (or to get filed and forgotten). And those bones with red blood cells in them that survived 75 M years? Or the various things that have been found of modern times, and sent to labs for ‘dating’ to check the labs? Or the theory that with a worldwide deluge, you’d have bones being swept up by currents, and like sandbars being dropped off in large fields of bones oh, fossils. Pardon me.
    Or how fossilization has been observed to be possibly quite quick?
    Logic, reason. Let me ignore your silliness as an arguement, and just comment on the lack of ability to learn, to even try to learn. Can you even come up with one good reason why God did things the way He did? I know, I know, you’re tempted to laugh, take it as a straight line, and shout “NOOO.” But the question is more directed at revealing your intellectual and moral capabilities. If you really can’t, you have a decided lack of empathy or imagination.
    There is an awesome difference between the most validated text of the Ancient World and Stephen King. If you don’t accept the Bible, you don’t accept Caesar. Or Socrates. Aristotle. All these men’s writings are far less validated than the TR. There’s other differences as well. But the Bible is the best history book just from a secular basis, even for the non-believer.
    No, it didn’t go over everyone’s head.
    The cribbing charge….Well, God made the world. He made Truth (moral laws, physical laws, and the desires of the human heart). He intended to supply the lacks with Himself. He also gave a lot of smart guys smarts, and some of them had corrupted bits of tradition from the last time He handed out some Truth.
    So some smart guys built stories and logics to partially explain the glorious Truth. They got some stuff wrong, being finite, and being sinful, but they got some stuff right too.
    Then God came and said ‘This is the way it is.’ And later, Salvage complained that there were some smart guys in history.
    As to the food theory…but that’s my arguement. Mountains of proof, etc., etc.,…. Just cause you don’t want to see, and you want to hide in something that perhaps pretends to lighthearted jeering from the fears facing you….
    First there is the fear: Oh noes, what if this guy is better than me? But that is a little thing, and the true fear niggles at you soul. What if I’ve been spitting in the face of the God who Loves me? How will He take that?
    Well, you’ll be happy to find CS Lewis agrees with you.
    –There are two sides to every dispute.
    –Two sides, dear boy? There are dozens, until one finds out the right answer, and then there is only one.
    Since you’re so sure, its not real, its not possible. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. However, if you can give over your pride for even a little while, you may find better. Right now, you’re a man walking into a roomful of snakes, with his eyes closed, but them hissing, and slithering, and you’re keeping up a stiff, upper lip in Good Upper Class British Fashion.
    “there are no snakes.”
    OooooKaaaay. Just make sure you never open your eyes and take a peak around.

  63. Tennwriter says:

    I think this discussssion, such as it is, has gone on long enough for now.
    Salvage, you can be charming, but….., otoh, you are of great worth and value. So trying to rescue you is a worthwhile endeavor. Think on the snakes for a while now. Each rattling a little fact.
    As to my Righty Friends, we stand near a Preference Cascade. In totalitarian countries, when the men in the black jackets come by and ask you in a poll ….
    “Are you going to vote for our beloved Left Wing Dictator, or would you like to go to jail, right now?”
    Many say the first.
    But people talk. And gradually, people realize they’re not alone. Everyone hates the dictator.
    So while the poll result the day before says Dictator wins, the result in the ballot box says nothing like that.
    89% of Americans are some form of Creationist. About 50 % are like me, YEC, who accept the literal Six Day Week of Creation. Most of those 50 vote Republican or Tea Party.
    I’m not sure what the numbers are on AGW, but I know more Tea party folk are skeptics and freethinkers than the cloned minions of Albert the Prophet of Gaia.
    Link these two. Tear down the whole stinking, corrupt mess. Return us to fiscal sanity, and just plain sanity, when the gov’ts job was not to prosyletize us against our will adn with our money.
    Maybe then we can get some Real Science.

  64. salvage says:

    >”In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.” Of course, that includes carbon. I’m not sure what the big deal you’re making about carbon for.
    I know, that’s because you refuse to learn some basic facts about reality. If you understood the nature of carbon and how it’s formed you would then understand that a 6,000 year old universe is impossible.
    >’Creation’s Tiny Mysteries’
    And once again if you would offer peer-reviewed material I would take a look.
    >You assert that Carbon has to be more than 6000 years old, and thus I’m wrong, but without offering any proof whatsover.
    There’s this thing called “Google” and these other things called “books”.
    >The same mountains formed possibly by a much faster process of drift (we only see the slowed down process now)
    No, we know the speed of drift because of how the material moves and the “tracks” it leaves behind. If the Earth is only 6,000 years old than countless tons of material have been defying the laws of physics in some astounding ways.
    I guess it’s just your god being magical and mysterious.
    >and/or by the receding of waters after the Noahic Flood.
    Where did all the water go? You understand that water has to go someplace right? So to cover the Earth that would mean a whole lot of H2o is missing. Let me guess, your god magicked it away!
    > I have already dealt with the rise of the mountains, dude, do keep up.
    No you haven’t.
    >Piles of bones, piles of fossils. Whaaatevaaaah. Hide behind semanticims when logic fails, eh?
    They’re two radically different things. For instance one is animal and the other mineral… wait a second, you don’t even know what a fossil is do you? You think it’s an actual bone don’t you? LOL! Creationists!
    >Those bones come with carefully inscribed dates, in English, right?
    Well bones have the macros sort of decay coupled with environment effects to determine time frames and fossils have atomic decay depending on what the fossil is made of.
    Look this is all basic science, one text book would fill in all the bits you don’t understand.
    Ah, but that would mean learning a truth that you just don’t want to be so.
    > And those bones with red blood cells in them that survived 75 M years?
    Never happened, another load of Creationist lies.
    Here’s what actually happened, they found a dinosaur FOSSIL that was in such great shape they could see stretches of “skin” (IT WASN’T SKIN IT WAS FOSSIL) that is they could see the bumpy texture of the skin FOSSILIZED.
    Then next thing you know Creationists are screaming “They found skin!!!!” and like the pig’s tooth tale will keep on repeating it no matter how many times corrected.
    You could look this stuff up, see that I was right and you would still repeat the lie wouldn’t you?
    > Or the theory that with a worldwide deluge, you’d have bones being swept up by currents, and like sandbars being dropped off in large fields of bones oh, fossils. Pardon me.
    There have been floods, you do know that right? I’m not denying that there has never been localized flooding on the planet Earth. I just don’t think that an angry sky god once day got even more angry at the creation he created for behaving how he must have known they’d behaving being their omniscient creator and all.
    Cuz that’d be crazy, never mind the fact there isn’t any physical evidence.
    >Or how fossilization has been observed to be possibly quite quick?
    It never has, another lie. Seriously, you need to read more than one book.
    >Can you even come up with one good reason why God did things the way He did?
    He’s a lunatic?
    >There is an awesome difference between the most validated text of the Ancient World and Stephen King.
    The validated? The stuff that’s supported by different pieces of history? Sure. The Bible however is not one I’m afraid.
    > If you don’t accept the Bible, you don’t accept Caesar.
    Caesar wrote books with his own hand that we can read today, he was written of by different people of his day from poets to historians both allied and opposed. We have physical remains like coins, a bust and other works of art. We have found his monuments, his war-works and endless other pieces of evidence that support what was written about him.
    Anything like that for Jesus?
    Once again, odd that no one noticed your god was here for some 30 years and that it took another 300 years it to spread to State religion and only after a series of bloody civil wars.
    Say did your Jesus plan it that way?
    > Or Socrates. Aristotle. All these men’s writings are far less validated than the TR.
    Once again, no, we have confirmation of their existence from countless sources.
    >There’s other differences as well. But the Bible is the best history book just from a secular basis, even for the non-believer.
    That is simply not true.
    >The cribbing charge….
    Is yet more proof that your god and Jesus are nothing more than myths. They did nothing original, nothing that older gods didn’t do. It’s the retelling and (for the time) modernization of the older stories.
    >So some smart guys built stories and logics to partially explain the glorious Truth.
    Like we know good and evil because a talking snake tricked us into eating a magic fruit?
    >They got some stuff wrong,
    Like Pi. Even while the Greeks with their pagan gods got it right.
    >”there are no snakes.”
    Talking snakes.
    See how that’s how Creationists work, pick and chose the details that support your faith, ignore the rest no matter how obvious.
    Facts Sparky, if you actually bothered to read about the facts you’re so desperate to deny you’d know that and so much more.
    But that’s hard scary work, better to imagine that there is a god that shares your cultural and political beliefs who makes every good thing happen and only gives you as much bad as you can handle / learn from and when you die everything is a-ok! That does take the edge off of life, it is a shame that it’s just not so.

  65. Tennwriter says:

    How many of you are naturally sweet individuals who just love Lefties, and want to share the country with them, and try to reason with them instead of preferring to kill most of them as deliberately ignorant, and enslave the rest? I mean as long as we’re going to talk about my cultural and political predilections.
    Are you saying God is okay with my chaining you to my lawnmower, and whipping you when you mow slow, and using your house as my summer home?
    Salvage?
    Hmmm?
    I’ve seen Stalcti that grew inches tall on 20th Century equipment.
    I’ve seen the pictures of debased red blood cells in dino bones.
    There are many hoaxes the Evos have done, and the notion that they might deliberately do another to influence a trial is a no-brainer. And the notion that they might lie about it afterwards….welll….no, they’d never do that…./sarc.
    The TR has 11,000 source docs. Homer has 3-4K (he’s second place). Caesar has way less….don’t beleive in Christ, don’t believe in Caesar….if you’re being fair-minded and are not a troll.
    Other factor, since the NT was written before 100 AD, not enough time according to some experts for mythologicification to take place….besides in some places the Holy Text invites the reader to interview the witnesses of those things. So the TR is unmatched in History for its superlative quality.
    My friends, Salvage has been invited to go to God with his questions. He understandably flinches. Do not do likewise. Once you’ve kneeled before God, you have no man to be afraid of. Creationism is part of the total destruction of the Left that we will get to see….Reagan destroyed the Int’l Hive of Scum and Villainy. We can destroy the last hold outs of Unreason and Immorality and Tyranny!
    For those who are still caught in the brainwashing paid for by tens of billions of taxpayer’s dollars, I and other caring counsellors are available to help. 🙂 I’ve had good discussions with evolutionists on occasion. But the difference between a troll, who has little integrity, and a misguided man who seeks the truth in evolution is very great indeed.
    Only 11% of the nation are Darwinian Fundamentalists, and most of these are Lefty, and at best half-bright. This is just one of many tools to use to crush the Left.
    AGW
    Border Fences
    Defunding Planned Parenthood
    Think my friends, of just how much money you’d have to build a great new house, or start an excellent new business to benefit thousands, or that charity that actually helps out the sick instead of pretending too that is just crying out for money that it would use well! How much better and brighter the world will be once we like the People of Iraq get our small fraction of tyrants squashed.
    For the days afterwards, for some a Truth and Reconcilliation Commission, for others,the hardcore leaders and the ultraviolent, the rope, I suppose. Its probably the reason we had so much problem with Communism. We beat them, but we didn’t hang the bastards. With Germany we did deNaziification and the Nuremburg Trials.

  66. salvage says:

    >Are you saying God is okay with my
    No, I’m saying your god isn’t real so it has no opinion on anything.
    >I’ve seen Stalcti that grew inches tall on 20th Century equipment.
    That’s nice, in nature they take a lot longer.
    >I’ve seen the pictures of debased red blood cells in dino bones.
    I’m not sure what you’ve seen but it wasn’t the blood of a 65 million year old extinct creature.
    Like the fossilized skin it’s probably Creationists deliberate lying about what science actually has said. Did you look up the skin thing by the way? Nah, that would mean you’d know the truth and then you couldn’t repeat the lies. Or maybe you could, I’m getting the vibe that honesty isn’t your thing.
    >There are many hoaxes the Evos have done, and the notion that they might deliberately do another to influence a trial is a no-brainer.
    There have been a handful of hoaxes just like in every other human enterprise. The difference being science busts frauds each and every time. Religion makes them Popes. As I have pointed out you just keep harping on the frauds while ignoring the factual, proven finds that confirm evolution as fact. Gosh, I wonder why you do that?
    >The TR has 11,000 source docs.
    Really? Any chance of a link to support that?
    >don’t beleive in Christ, don’t believe in Caesar….
    Sorry I’ve already addressed that point, we have proof of Caesar from multiple sources and there is nothing “magical” about Julius running Rome and getting cut up for his troubles. Jesus is only mentioned in the Bible and his story makes no sense (your god “sacrificed” himself to himself so he wouldn’t be angry with his creation? What?) and is an obvious rehash of older myths.
    >Other factor, since the NT was written before 100 AD, not enough time according to some experts for mythologicification to take place….
    Yeah, the Jews might point out this thing called the Torah? It’s much older than that, it may have been brought together at that time but the bits are quite ancient in places far more than the whole. And once again, most if not all of the Bible stories are cribbed from older works.
    Speaking of old where was your god when all the other gods were running the planet? Why’d he tolerate the Egyptians worshiping their eagle and dog gods for thousands of years?
    >besides in some places the Holy Text invites the reader to interview the witnesses of those things.
    Huh? Witness what? Jesus? Bit late for that isn’t it?
    >So the TR is unmatched in History for its superlative quality.
    Simply not true. Once again just cuz you want something to be so that doesn’t make it.
    Yes, like your goofy sky god.

  67. Tennwriter says:

    You’re not very bright are you? You state that I worship my God because he supports my cultural tendencies.
    Then I tell you my cultural tendencies.
    You’re a leftist, dishonest, lazy, a troll….Part of me would be quite happy to wipe the lot of you out, and chain the survivors to my lawnmower. See, I’m a fair bit of a Jacksonian. That’s my culture. Nuke em twice, cause you can’t be sure with just once. The merciful option is A or B. A being a cold-blooded ultimatum delivered once. B. is the sniper’s bullet delivered from a mile away. Both being more merciful than nuking the city until ninety-five percent are dead or incapacitated.
    But Jesus says ‘hey, hold up there. Love your enemies. Do good to them that despitefully use you. Bless them that curse you.’
    I’m supposed to be longsuffering (easy for me…see the above posts where I talked to you despite your continual rain of insult and audacious stupidity), but I’m also supposed to be quick to forgive (and that’s hard for me. Once I decide someone is scum, I don’t usually change my mind, or give them another chance of any kind.)
    If you’re saying to yourself, wow, this Tennwriter ain’t much of a Christian, well yeah. I’d be better as a Heath Ledger Joker.

  68. Tennwriter says:

    We stand on the verge of a preference cascade. The science is there, the history is there, the abundant lies of the enemies of the West are there, and the vast majority of the American People are on our side if we can man up.
    We can break the logjam on over a dozen issues. Move the country forward in big steps. Whatever your pet issue, whether its guns or borders or blowing the snot out of Tehran or defunding Planned Parenthood, or defunding NPR, getting rid of AGW…..now is the time to press forward on this issue. The more the merrier. Support them all if you can.
    All we have to do is energize the base, and send a clear signal…we are not for turning. And we’ll run right over the little snots in the roadway with their pretences. The time is ripe for a sixty percent, generationally defining vote.
    What Reagan did to Gorbachev, we can do the Left.
    They’ll be whimpering for half a decade afterwards wondering what hit them.
    And what’s the clearest signal of ‘I am not a Leftist, and I mean it!’?
    “Jesus created the Earth in six days.”
    Trumpet it loud, my brothers. Every time you say that, a Lefty squeals.

  69. salvage says:

    >You’re not very bright are you? You state that I worship my God because he supports my cultural tendencies.
    Of course you do, have you ever heard of someone worshiping a god they disagree with?
    >You’re a leftist, dishonest, lazy, a troll….Part of me would be quite happy to wipe the lot of you out, and chain the survivors to my lawnmower.
    Uh huh. Next time you tell that pig tooth hoax story or the trees think about honesty won’t you? In both cases I have given you the truth, one that is easily confirmed but that won’t stop you from telling the exact same lie.
    >See, I’m a fair bit of a Jacksonian.
    No, you really aren’t. I suspect your knowledge of Founding Fathers is about as accurate as your scientific.
    >That’s my culture. Nuke em twice, cause you can’t be sure with just once.
    And that’s your god, an uncreative, insecure psycho who seems to think that violence is the only solution.
    >But Jesus says ‘hey, hold up there. Love your enemies. Do good to them that despitefully use you. Bless them that curse you.’
    Nah, Jesus didn’t say that or if he did he was just repeating what the Buddha and other Eastern mystics had said centuries earlier.
    See that’s why if real your god is so unimpressive that it deserves no worship. Not a single original idea or revelation. Talk about lazy!
    >All we have to do is energize the base, and send a clear signal…we are not for turning.
    Nah, you’re for stuffing your faces while sitting on lawn chairs screaming that Obama is a secret Muslim.
    Weird no one takes you seriously.
    >What Reagan did to Gorbachev, we can do the Left.
    Um… nothing? Is there no delusion you don’t subscribe to?
    >”Jesus created the Earth in six days.”
    >Trumpet it loud, my brothers. Every time you say that, a Lefty squeals.
    Very true, but it’s more of a giggle-snort than a squeal.
    I agree, tell everyone you know that Jesus made the Earth in six days, it helps to spot the stupids in life and that’s a quick way to ID yourselves.
    And tell ’em that dinosaurs were dragons, that’s a good one too.
    Hey, thumpy, tell me, if your god is so great then howcum Christianity isn’t and has never been the number one religion in the world? Why are there fewer Christians now than 50 years ago? 100 years ago? 300 years ago? And why the Reformation? Doesn’t that mean Jesus got it wrong or did he want it to splinter like that?

  70. Tennwriter says:

    Of course. You mean you haven’t? Ever hear of Moses, and his first response when God appeared to him in a burning bush? Moses was not eager to take on the job.
    I mean really, it does occur to us to occasionally think ‘Hey, God, can’t you solve this problem without me? I’ll be glad to stand on the sidelines and watch You smite the heathen.’
    But when we’re eager to smite the heathen, then God wants us to watch. He’s a very aggravating God sometimes. He wants us to be better people, and if we have to suffer some pain and fear along the way, well, its in a good cause.
    My ideal god would be like a djinn. “Hey, djinn, ol pal. Go dump Salvage ten miles from the shore into the atlantic without a boat, and a shark to chase him. But just to make it sporting, give him a broken off oar. And when you’re back, cure this cold for me, and turn time around so I can watch Monday Night Football at a Mexican restauraunt, eh?”
    The real one tho’ says: “I’ve got some jobs for you. Number One:Trust me even, no especially when its scary. Two: Love everyone, even those who abuse you, and even those who are fairly bad at it. Oh, by the way, since you came to Me and were willing to learn, here’s lots and lots of proofs of my existence, my love, and the reality of what I talk about in my Word. Get some sleep because I have big plans for us tommorrow.”
    Its exciting, but fearful. And happily, He has all sorts of stories how He beat the living snot out of the enemies of his people even when they were outnumbered badly. So the notion that a mere 11% of the American populace are going to be able to thwart his will, is amusing.
    But do give it your best shot, Salvage ol’ boy. We can use a laugh.

  71. salvage says:

    >Ever hear of Moses, and his first response when God appeared to him in a burning bush? Moses was not eager to take on the job.
    Yeah, that’s a story and like all the other stories with your god they make little sense.
    >He wants us to be better people, and if we have to suffer some pain and fear along the way, well, its in a good cause.
    I’M BEATING YOU FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! Ah the battle cry of the abusive parent / spouse. See that’s one of the things that makes no sense about your god, he wants certain things (like people being good) but for all his power he can’t seem to effect change. Are you sure he’s real? He does an excellent imitation of something that isn’t.
    >My ideal god would be like a djinn. “Hey, djinn, ol pal. Go dump Salvage ten miles from the shore into the atlantic without a boat, and a shark to chase him. But just to make it sporting, give him a broken off oar. And when you’re back, cure this cold for me, and turn time around so I can watch Monday Night Football at a Mexican restauraunt, eh?”
    Ah such a wonderful example of passive-aggressive impotence. People who don’t share your delusion or even politely tolerate them really bug you don’t we?
    >The real one tho’ says:
    Nothing, only crazy people think otherwise.
    >”I’ve got some jobs for you. Number One:Trust me even, no especially when its scary.
    If we trusted gods we would have died out a long time ago.
    >Two: Love everyone, even those who abuse you, and even those who are fairly bad at it.
    Pap.
    >Oh, by the way, since you came to Me and were willing to learn, here’s lots and lots of proofs of my existence,
    That would be nice sadly there’s no such thing. Nature is most certainly the product of chance and the laws of nature or at least it looks exactly like that meaning your god has no interest in being proven real.
    >my love,
    Unless your gay, Jewish, Muslim (or any other wrong religion) or an atheist then you must be put to death and then tortured forever.
    Not to mention all the murder and genocide your god was into back in the day.
    Are you sure your god is about love? He seems pretty psycho.
    >and the reality of what I talk about in my Word. Get some sleep because I have big plans for us tommorrow.”
    Plans are a mortal thing, we need process and cause and effect to get stuff done, gods are not so encumbered yet fools like you babble on about his plans. The last recorded one, the bit with Jesus? That really didn’t work out so well did it? I don’t think your god is so good at planning stuff.
    >Its exciting, but fearful. And happily, He has all sorts of stories how He beat the living snot out of the enemies of his people even when they were outnumbered badly.
    So… your god made the universe, everything right? So that means he made his own enemies for him to kill later on?
    Does that sound sane to you?
    >So the notion that a mere 11% of the American populace are going to be able to thwart his will, is amusing.
    I’ll ask again, why has Christianity never been the number one religion on Earth? Why did your god let other gods rule for millenniums before Jesus? Why are there fewer Christians now than before?
    It sure looks like some will is being thwarted.
    And if your god is real and all powerful how can that even come close to being possible?
    See I’m an atheist because I give all this stuff some thought.
    >But do give it your best shot, Salvage ol’ boy. We can use a laugh.
    Well as far as I know I’ve only “made” one atheist in my life, high school girl friend who was a regular churchy type until we started talking about it and I pointed some stuff out like I have with you. It started with me laughing at the pic of Jesus in her church, what’s so funny she asked? Well Jesus wasn’t White, I said. He was a Middle Easter Jew. She paused, startled and she was thus enlightened and soon realized just how crazy it all was. The cool thing is she still goes to church because she loves to sing in the choir but knows that it’s all a bunch of bollocks.
    The difference between you two is she was (and still is) a brave, scrappy little thing who had little time for foolishness (myself the notable exception) and once she realized how foolish religion really was she lost interest in it. You are a fearful man who couldn’t handle life without your celestial safety net and god father-figure. The idea would terrify you to no end so you won’t even begin to think about it.

  72. Tennwriter says:

    So you admit you’re wrong in your previous contention.
    I’m sorry your girlfriend was so poorly educated in the Bible.
    As to atheists, I sometimes go with the theory….a little knowledge takes us away from God, but much knowledge brings us back to God–Blaise Pascal. Put more crudely, atheists are half-bright.
    Now when Jesus was born in Bethleham of Judea, in the days of Herod the King, behold, there came wise men from the East to Jerusalem,
    Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
    Matthew Chapter 2, verses 1 and 2 of the Holy Bible, KJV.
    That’s for your girlfriend to read.
    As to me being a fearful man, why yes, I am. Why would I want to handle life alone when I don’t have too? So I can prove how macho, I am? Smile. I’ve had some inkling of what life might look without God. A good comparison is life without tastebuds. A gray, dreary place where even the good is worth little, and passes by quickly. You must hate me a great deal then to wish such deprivation of the senses and finer feelings on someone.
    God is joy, light, fire….inspired by Blaise Pascal. Ah, and oh He is. Power and glory, the like of which the base mind can barely begin to see. His purposes are not ours, but His purposes are perfect and righteous altogether. Glory be to His name, the Creator of Heaven and Earth who worked for Six Literal Days, and then Rested. Glory to the King on High. Glory to He who is Truth, and in whom is no hoax or lie. Glory to Him who is Mercy, for without that, even the Redeemed, the Prisoners Bought Back, could not stand.
    You task me with various evils. Perhaps you are right. So? My Lord will guide me on to the right and true path. I, as all humans, have evil threaded into my every act, and even if I think I speak honestly, I don’t. But He Who is Truth will guide us into all truth, perfecting us until the day we stand before Him, totally radiant, and full of joy. May on that day, you bow with me in happiness as well to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

  73. salvage says:

    >So you admit you’re wrong in your previous contention.
    Er no, what are you talking about?
    >As to atheists, I sometimes go with the theory….a little knowledge takes us away from God, but much knowledge brings us back to God–Blaise Pascal.
    Weird, because the more knowledge mankind gathers the less religious we become. I guess you’re not going to answer the question as to why there are fewer and fewer Christians because that would force you to acknowledge that particular truth and mentally it’s clear you’re not up to spec on that.
    >As to me being a fearful man, why yes, I am. Why would I want to handle life alone when I don’t have too?
    Who says you have to? It’s just that real friends are that much better than imaginary.

  74. Tennwriter says:

    Moses disagreed with the God he worshipped. Clear as mud, now?
    As I gather wealth, or ability, status, or knowledge, it becomes easier to see myself as the end-all, be-all. I am not a sinner in need of repentance, but a pretty swell guy.
    As I grow in knowledge, I venture from my child-like faith, and ask questions which are not immediately answered except by the Devil and his miniions. But holding on to my faith, I search deeper, and find better, greater answers as my knowledge passes that of the half-taught skeptic, and I become a master of wisdom.
    As my culture expands in knowledge, many of them do not expand in knowledge themselves all that much. And all the pages of the Internet, instead of teaching wisdom become another source of pride that would take me from God.
    But wisdom is growing, and even now the Left trembles in fear at the sounds of hoofbeats in the night. Truth has broken free of the MSM gatekeepers who imprisoned her for so long. And now through the long, electronic night, true tales are told, and a rising wind gathers that will shatter the deeds of the wicked in the fullness of the Lord’s time. Unless, of course, my Lord has another plan. Even so, it is well with my soul.

  75. salvage says:

    >Moses disagreed with the God he worshipped. Clear as mud, now?
    No, not clear at all.
    It’s also not clear why you’re not answering my questions, I’ll ask again:
    I’ll ask again, why has Christianity never been the number one religion on Earth? Why did your god let other gods rule for millenniums before Jesus? Why are there fewer Christians now than before?
    It sure looks like some will is being thwarted.
    And if your god is real and all powerful how can that even come close to being possible?
    If you’re not going to answer these questions please don’t waste you time babbling about how believing in magic and a ridiculous sky god of a tribe of desert savages some 6,000 years gone is somehow wise.

  76. Tennwriter says:

    As GK Chesterton put it ‘Christianity has not been tried, and found wanting. Its been tried, and found hard.’
    People prefer evil, and lies, and not being accountable to the truth.
    Thus that answers the first question. And yes, I know you’re going to say ‘no, it doesn’t.’ Whatever.
    Creation–The Truth was out. God had spoken to Adam and Eve.
    Some time after Creation, ancestor worship began. Hephaestus possibly Cain, being worshipped. Later, Japheth aka Jupiter, one of Noah’s sons is worshipped as the King of the Gods.
    Why? Truth is a harsh thing at times. Its easier to worship a god more like yourself than the Almighty, the Dreadful, the I AM. Its easier to prostrate yourself before a charismatic older guy, than to go face to face with Truth.
    God reached down and tried again. This time with Abraham (although there were still worshippers of the Old Religion such as Melchizedek who served the Creator). Abraham had kids, and eventually, we get to the Twelve Tribes. Judges, prophets, kings.
    Then God tries again, and sends Himself. There are also apostles and others.
    That’s my theory how it worked. Some is speculation, some is not. Basically, humans don’t want to face the Truth, and so tend to make themselves gods of a lesser sort. God repeatedly corrects them, and they repeatedly go astray.

  77. salvage says:

    >People prefer evil, and lies, and not being accountable to the truth.
    Really? So everyone who doesn’t follow your religion is evil?
    Huh, so I guess then you’d be alright with what? Throwing them in prison until they become “good” by believing as you do? That’s what you do with evil right?
    >Some time after Creation, ancestor worship began.
    Sure, that’s the basis of a many of the ancient religions.
    >Why? Truth is a harsh thing at times.
    It sure is! Some people go to extraordinary lengths to deny it, coming up with all kinds of convoluted and illogical stories to deny it.
    For instance, you.
    So what you’re saying is your god made people, told them to worship him, they were all “No! That’s too much truth (or harshness)” so they went and made up easier gods? Like the kind that demand you build giant pyramids as the Egyptians had to deal with or the Carthaginians and their god who demanded blood sacrifice? The Norse gods! I’m not sure if they could be called easy. And all the while the real god is doing nothing about this?
    And when Christianity did finally take your god what? God easier? We got tougher?
    >Its easier to worship a god more like yourself than the Almighty,
    I know you don’t get the irony of that statement. Oh and for an almighty god he sure does seem pretty weak, the Roman and Egyptian gods ruled longer than he did, they were the first empires while your god’s worshipers were under their heels.]
    >God reached down and tried again.
    As a real wise man once said “Do or do not, there is not try.” This is generally true of everyone but in a gods case it’s quite literal. Your god is perfect no? How can a perfect being do anything less than effortless perfection? If your god is real we can only assume that every atom of creation is exactly where he wants it to be.
    This time with Abraham (although there were still worshippers of the Old Religion such as Melchizedek who served the Creator). Abraham had kids, and eventually, we get to the Twelve Tribes. Judges, prophets, kings.
    And then there were no more other religions! Oh, no wait…
    >Then God tries again, and sends Himself. There are also apostles and others.
    So your god… failed? See that’s what try again means, you messed up the first time or didn’t get the desired results. I have to try again all the time, the very nature of my work means there’s a fair amount of trying over because I can’t read my client’s minds and sometimes they don’t know what they want. If I were your god I would no only produce perfect deliverable they’d be in the client’s hand even before they called!
    Are you sure your god is almighty?
    >That’s my theory how it worked.
    And it has many holes in it, a theory this weak would have to be dismissed by anyone who appreciates the theory of theories.
    >Some is speculation, some is not.
    I’m pretty sure most of it is.
    >Basically, humans don’t want to face the Truth, and so tend to make themselves gods of a lesser sort.
    Lesser sort? We’re bigger than Jesus, for instance Jesus walked on water, we walked on the Moon, Jesus raised one dead guy, medical science has doubled our lifespans, Jesus fed a single wedding party, science has made deserts bloom, Jesus cured a handful of lepers science has destroyed many diseases and managed countless others from life-enders to nuisances. Your god is the lesser sort.
    So, what you’re saying is the reason why your god was never the number one worshiped religion and has been on steady decline for the last 100 years (and picking up steam in the last 20!, very exciting times) is because people are afraid of the Truth that you and only people who think like you are not afraid of. How brave you are!
    Oh and of course people are “People prefer evil, and lies, and not being accountable to the truth.” but not you! You and people who think like you are the opposite I assume? Good, honest and accountable?
    Well! Isn’t that convenient! And more than a little self-serving and demonstrably false.
    Tell me, what about all this Reformation business in the 1500s? Which side was the “People prefer evil, and lies, and not being accountable to the truth” side? Catholics or Protestants?